Saw plates steel and backs supplies

Discussion in 'Saw Makers Forum' started by need2boat, Feb 22, 2012.

  1. need2boat

    need2boat Most Valued Member

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    hey guys,

    So I'm looking to try my hand at making a back saw. I took a class over the weekend with Matt Ciancian on building a back saw and had a lot of fun.

    Just wondered if you might have a recommendation for a reseller or someone on the list that will sell steel pls either bent or slotted backs. I know many people like the slotted over the bent but I'd rather the bent.

    I can tooth the blade and add the back but don't own the equipment to cut the plate to size or bend the back so it would helpful if I could find someone will it offer that at the same time.

    Joe
     
  2. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    Joe,

    if you want folded backs, you should get a brake. Harbor Freight has some that will work, but not all can fold the gauge needed, be careful.

    Mike Wenzloff sells slotted backs, and others have in the past. Ray was selling some I guess (here on backsaw.net). The problem is stocking the proper size alloys, having the right saws, etc...the saws aren't cheap for the good ones. You can buy the plate cheap enough, but you need someone with the right saw and brass to slot it. Probably easier to get it from Mike Wenzloff if you can get him to ship it out. I hear he can be slow. He sells folded backs also.

    You can cut plate with a pair of tin snips, at least up to .032" and/or possibly a bit thicker...more than that and you'll need a larger shear that bolts to a table. I use a pair of $15 tin snips available at any big box, and then file the edge you cut.

    Saws are addicting...I do have most of the equipment to make them, although I don't use it too much. I don't think anyone will buy my saws, at least not for the price I would have to sell them for.

    As I always tell people, you start out with a piece of Foley and the next thing you know you'll be spinning your own split-nuts and slotting backs...lol
     
  3. need2boat

    need2boat Most Valued Member

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    65
    Thanks Alan,

    I know Mikes sell stuff and I bought from in the past but the last few times I've tried to contact him I'm didn't hear back. I will try contacting him again.

    Joe
     
  4. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    Joe,

    Yeah, he's had some health issues, but more so has gotten behind on his orders...

    What size backs are you looking for, and what size slots?
     
  5. need2boat

    need2boat Most Valued Member

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    65
    Hey Alan,

    Right now I'm just looking to make a dove tail saw. so maybe 9"X2" with a 3/4? back. I was looking for something around 16ppi.

    This being my first I'm not set on anything and figured I'd ask Mike for some advice. That was before when I could call and talk with him.

    I was also looking for some saw plate stock to replace to older back saws that had bent blades but the backs and handles are good.

    Joe
     
  6. mattsworld

    mattsworld Member

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    Me too Joe! ;)

    Joe and Alan

    I'd love to find a new supplier of folded backs...thanks for suggesting this forum Joe.

    If you find anybody willing to supply you, let me know....I'd like to put in an order for 10 or 15.

    And I'd also like to share pics of Joe's saw he made in class...either he's got a natural talent for saw making, or I'm the greatest teacher in the world... LOL!

    [​IMG]

    More pics and details here... http://thesawblog.com/?p=1080

    -Matt Cianci
     
  7. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    181
    Joe,

    I do have a plate that size, it's just over 9" long and 2" wide, and stamped at 16 ppi. In fact, I had offered this to you once, before you found the finer ratchets you got recently. I've given most of my brass backs away or sold them. I don't know if I have a back that would work for it. I have a back that was slotted for .018" and the .020 is a bit tight. I might be able to re-slot it, but my experience is that it's hard to re-slot them. I think this was slotted on my mini-mill once upon a time ago...
    I have some .020" plate in both 2" and 3" wide. I could sell you some of it if you like, and you could stamp the teeth yourself.
    TonyZ just surfaced on this board not long ago, and he was talking about folding some backs, as well as slotting some. He has a machine shop in PA, so that might be a possibility if Tony does end up folding some. You would need to ask him, I only know what he mentioned in his post here.
    Not me, I know that. I only want to make slotted backs. Folded backs have proven to be a PITA over time, so to me there is nothing better about them and in fact I consider a folded back to be inferior to a slotted back as they all move over time. Pete Taran built/designed a better mouse trap, IMO. That said, some folks like folded backs, but after re-adjusting so many of them I'm have no fondness for them. That is merely personal preference, so don't let my thoughts sway you.
    Thanks! Joe doesn't share those pics with us himself, so thanks for doing so yourself! :rolleyes:

    Nice looking saw Joe! :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
  8. need2boat

    need2boat Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    65
    Hey Alan,

    Thanks for the offer, again! I didn't think to post the pictures here, and I finally got the process worked out!

    If you think you could get the .18 back to work or reslotted or maybe I could get a plate to fit it? I would for sure take it. I can pemail you or mine is jfederici(at)limitedbrands.com

    The saws I have that need new plates are a Simmons 14". I wanted to put a and 14"x4"x.25 and the other is a Richardson 12" that has a slightly longer 12-1/8 plate that I'd like to replace with a 12-1/8 x 3-1/2 (or 4)x.20.

    Both have slotted backs so I'm guessing I have a little flex on the plate stock. . .

    Joe
     
  9. mattsworld

    mattsworld Member

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    Alan

    Thanks you for your response.

    FWIW, I actually am starting to agree with you....folded backs are giving me fits, both in repair and plate replacement work, and in my classes. I would love to try milled backs.

    I'm going to post a separate thread about that....

    -Matt
     
  10. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    I don't know about reslotting it, I might have a piece of .018, but would need to dig around in the garage...I know I have a bunch of 2" .020", and 3" .0.20.

    I don't have any 3.5" at all, and have only about 18" is .032 that is 4". I have .025 plate, but it's saved for a high school buddy. I don't know how much more of it I have in the garage, I would have to look.
    The 3" .020 plate would work. That's a perfect size for it, IMO. That is what I'm building now, 14" x 3" x .020". I like the longer plate like that. This is the perfect all around saw plate, IMO. You can cut almost all joinery with it, from dovetails to tenons in 12/4 stock. For most home furniture and cabinets, that size plate is perfect, for me.

    Bear in mind, I'm cutting dovetails on 24" wide logs. I ain't using no handsaw, but I do use a full size handsaw I got from a local galoot. I don't own many full size handsaws, only 3. In fact, I mostly only am interested in making backsaws.
    Wouldn't those have folded backs?

    I think you can send me an email through backsaw.net. I'll check.

    EDIT: yeah, I turned that on so you can send an email. I'll reply back to you through email. You can always reach me at aland (at) TraditionalToolworks (dot) Com
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
  11. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

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    181
    Here's an offer for you guys.

    I just ordered 12 feet of 3/4" x 3/16" brass.

    I think I have enough 1095 to put together 12 backs with plates that are 14" long x 3" wide. The plates would have the blue one them, so you would need to soak them in citric acid, I could toss some in.

    $25 for the slotted back and plate. That is only for that specific pair of back and plate. You clean the blue, stamp it on the foley, and get split nuts from your choice. Each person would pay about $35 for parts. I would get the nuts from LN or TFWW if Mike is not filling orders.

    I spend a fair amount of time cleaning the plate up myself. Once I get the plate in place I use small wood blocks with some small f-clamps along the edge of my dirty bench. try to keep metal away from my woodworking bench always. So I have another bench for the dirty stuff...:eek: In fact I do all my flat filing like that. I always flat file all corners.

    I do have another piece of 1/4" x 3/4" which is chamfored on the top, it's 18" long and could be cut up and slotted. If Joe is interested in that, $2/inch.

    I also have a 1/8" x 8" piece, this is getting pretty thin, so not sure anyone would want to try that. If I could slot this, I would only charge $10 for it. I think I could for a thin plate, but only have .018", .020", .025", .032" at the moment, possibly one higher, but .032" is about my largest saw.

    The 3/16" x 3/4" wide would work with both the 2" or 3" wide .020" I have

    Slotted back costs with sizes available:

    3/16" x 3/4" = $1.50/inch (12' available)
    1/4" x 3/4" = $2.00/inch (18" available)
    1/4 x 5/16" = $1.00/inch (23" available)
     
  12. mattsworld

    mattsworld Member

    Messages:
    23
    Alan

    I am in need of backs only...I have a saw plate supplier. So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're offering a 1/4 x 3/4 slotted back in 12 inch length for $24.00?
     
  13. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    181
    Yes, but I only have 19" of that material.

    The more practical for a 12" saw would be the 3/16" x 3/4", which will be $1.50/inch, so those would be $18.

    The other material I have is 1/4" x 5/16" (kinda odd size), for $1/inch, but I only have 23" of that.

    I can get other size material if you would like other sizes.

    Those prices are slotted at either .018", .020", .025", or .032", your choice.
     
  14. need2boat

    need2boat Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    65
    Alan,

    I'm just interested in the backs at this time as well.

    I'd like to get the 18" piece of 1/4" slotted to .25. I was looking for 14" but if you need to sell it as one that's fine.

    I'd also like to get 2 backs 10" of the 3/16 slotted for DT saws. One slotted 18, the other 20 Can these be chamfored?. I'm guessing this is like the LN saws.

    Can you do top and bottom?

    thanks

    Joe
     
  15. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    181
    I can sell you 14". IOW, I won't ding you for the extra 4" as it's pretty much unusable. I was originally going to make an 18" saw out of it.
    I can I think, but would need to try it first. I have chamfored them before, but it costly in time, so I can't quote you until I was to try some and see the actual time it takes, time is money as they say. ;)

    Basically what I'm saying is that it will cost extra for any extra work, and chamforing is one of them.

    Even after chamforing you need to clean them up with a flat file, as the surface is sometimes left less than perfect. I would need to experiment with that first.

    The 3/16"x3/4" backs are no problem as I will have plenty of material.
     
  16. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    181
    Hard to get a good pic, but this shows the profile. In this case shown the chamfor goes up to almost a peak. This only has the one side chamfored.

    It's not easy to do and I ruined a piece of bronze a while back as the fixture skewed.
    Yes, I've done them both ways, and have done them by hand with a flat file. I use a saw file, the little triangular files to do the chamfors, any of them work fine. What is most important is to take your time and do it slowly, keeping the flat of the file at the proper angle.

    I think I need to revisit this and try to structure pricing. I've sent an email to a metal head buddy of mine to see how much split-nuts would cost to have made, for me to make them it takes too long. I think I may be best to put together whole saw kits, especially seeing what Mike and Joel sell them for. I think I can put together a great kit that most woodworkers would pay a reasonable price and get it cheaper than anyone else.

    Of course the backs are where the value is, as is with the split-nuts also. TFWW gets $12 for a pair of nuts...:eek: Mike gets almost that much also ($4.50/$5.50).

    The back is worth much more than the plate, and requires the biggest investment in machinery and education.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2012
  17. TraditionalToolworks

    TraditionalToolworks Most Valued Member

    Messages:
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    BTW, not sure if anyone else knows, but Wenzloff slots his backs on a Harbor Freight mini-mill using a wood fixture (maybe out of composite or hardwood).

    I got a similar Grizzly mini-mill, still have it, but had to do so much modification to it, and it still is a piece of china crap. Because the quality of that machine was so bad, it drove me to the Nichols.

    This is my mini-mill, Mike uses the red one with the R8 adapter. This has a Morse 3 taper. Probably means nothing to any of you...lol
     

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  18. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    652
    Hi Alan, you are of course talking my language.. :)

    Matt, if you haven't got a supplier of slit brass backs yet, email me your address, and I'll see what I can find..

    Regards
    Ray
     
  19. mattsworld

    mattsworld Member

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    Thanks Ray...

    A very nice offer...i just sent you an email...
     
  20. mattsworld

    mattsworld Member

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    Thanks Alan....much appreciated. I'd like to try the 1/4 by 3/4 material in 12 inches, but I'm curious...Why do you think 5/16 would be more practical?