To medallion or not.

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by Joe S, Aug 5, 2008.

  1. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    It would seem there has been some new discussion on the use of the medallion in conjunction with the trade mark and the many variations of the Warranted Superior medallion that have appeared through the years. I am wondering if the large flat faceless medallions were created for those makers hadn\'t found a trade mark, didn\'t produce enough to justify making one for their product or really too early for the accepted style which became the norm? As an example I have included three saws by Thomas B Hawksworth who am assuming was from the partnership of Wilson, Hawksworth,Moss and maybe Ellison depending on the date of manufacture. Why only Thomas signed his saws is a mystery to me and if someone can share examples which might include the other names this would be interesting.
    The large close beech handled 14\" steel back was made of \"double refined\" cast steel. The dramatically curved handle sports three split screws with the third screw a 15/16\" \"flat brass medallion\". This wasn\'t a second grade saw when made so should have been advertised and proudly shown off as the better quality work.
    A smaller open handled beech 10\" steel back saw was also made with \"double refined\" cast steel. It has only two split nuts but unfortunately hasn\'t faired as well over the years. Stylistically the handle has the same flamboyant flare as the previous saw and would probably date to about the same time. Simply not enough room to fit in a third screw.
    The last saw also has Thomas B Hawksworth\'s name stamped into the the steel back but was made with \"German Steel\". It is also 10\" but the handle is significantly different in style from the previous two. Lesser quality? or from a different time.
    observations... not necessarily answers.
    Joe Steiner

    Please see replys for pictures.
  2. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    Image 1:

  3. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    Image 2:

  4. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    Image 3: [​IMG]
  5. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    Image 4: [​IMG]
  6. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    Image 5: [​IMG]
  7. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    Image 6: [​IMG]
  8. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    Image7: [​IMG]
  9. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    Image 8: [​IMG]
  10. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    Image 8: [​IMG]
  11. ray

    ray Guest

    Hi Joe,

    I\'ve been away helping one of my son\'s with a project.

    Firstly, thanks for uploading the pictures, beautiful saws, fine condition. There is something about
    the early British made saws. A certain elegance of design that is hard to capture.

    I haven\'t yet done any research on this particular maker, so it will be interesting to see what turns up.

    A quick check of \"Handsaw Makers of Britain\"
    Wilson, Hawksworth & Moss, Sheffield 1834-1847
    Wilson, Hawksworth Moss & Ellison Sheffied 1849-1855

    Also Checklist DB
    Pigots 1841 WILSON, HAWKSWORTH & MOSS Saw manufacturers Arundel Lane View
    Merchants and file, saw , steel &c. manufacturers and roller
    1 Arundel Lane and Beeley Works

    I will do some more digging and see what else turns up.

    Thanks again for the pictures, I like the \"blank\" medallion, looks good.

  12. ray

    ray Guest

    Hi Joe,

    Here are some possibilities, depending on how WILSON, HAWKSWORTH & MOSS marked their saws, but
    according to \"Handsaw Makers of Britain\" the WILSON, HAWKSWORTH, MOSS & ELLISON firm consisted of

    John Wilson Hawksworth
    Thomas Buxton Hawksworth
    Joseph Ellison
    Joshua Moss

    I am guessing, they chose to use John Wilson Hawksworth\'s middle name rather than
    calling themselves \"Hawksworth, Hawksworth & Moss\" or \"Hawksworth Bros & Moss\" So \"Wilson Hawksworth and Moss\" would have been a better choice for the company name.

    The likely candidate for \"Thos B Hawksworth\" would be Thomas Buxton Hawksworth.

    According to Ken Roberts \"some 19th century woodworking tools\" and
    updates from \"Handsaw Makers of Britain\"

    Wilson, Hawksworth & Moss 1834 - 1847
    Wilson, Hawksworth Moss & Elison 1849 - 1855
    Wilson, Hawksworth Elison & Co 1856 - 1884

    More digging I think.

  13. ray

    ray Guest

    Hi Joe,

    I think this is closer, Thos.B.Hawksworth was a bit elusive, And I was wrong about the Wilson
    incorporated into the name, seems there really was a John Wilson, at least early in the company history.
    John Wilson, disappears from the alphabetical and street directories by 1833, but remains
    in the company name for some reason.

    Company History reconstruction (approximate dates)

    John Wilson and John Wilson Hawksworth started at 4 Sycamore St. They don\'t list saws as one
    their products however.

    Thomas Buxton Hawksworth doesn\'t appear anywhere
    I didn\'t try to trace Joshua Moss. But he has joined the firm by 1833

    Thomas Buxton Hawksworth doesn\'t appear anywhere
    Joseph Elison has joined the business

    Thomas Buxton Hawksworth appears for the first time
    Holbert Henry Taylor also appears in directories but not in the company name?
    Just to make it hard, the directory entries are now abbreviated to (Wilson H & Co)

    Thomas Buxton Hawksworth is still there, but Joshua Moss has gone from the company name
    Sidenote: Joshua Moss, appears as a sawmaker elsewhere, so looks like he went out and
    started out on his own. Moss Joshua & Gamble Bros Franklin Works Russell Street


    John Wilson Hawksworth is no longer listed but Thomas Buxton Hawksworth is still there
    This is the last entry I have found, I have seen a reference to 1887, but gaps in
    the available directories makes it hard to trace. I would think they continued in business
    because by 1901 they appear in a listing for Kayser, Elison & Co.

    1901 KAYSER, ELISON & Co Limited (late WILSON, HAWKSWORTH ELISON & Co.)

    Image 1 and 2 Sometime after 1849 and before 1881, the handle style looks like it would be more 1850\'s
    rather than 1880\'s but that is not conclusive, when we get so see more saws, the blank medallion will be a good
    clue as to date. If forced to guess I would say 1850-1860

    Image 4 and 5 Tighter Beak, Bottom Nib, More elongated top horn Guess 1849 - 1860

    Image 7 and 8 Relaxed Beak, No Bottom Nib, Higher Hang, Less rounded, Shorter Top Horn
    Guessing here but 1860 - 1880 just on handle style, likely to be later than 4&5
    (it could even be later 1880\'s but lack of directory entries make it harder)

    I found an advert from 1879


    The thing that jumps out at me with this ad, is that saw manufacture is not their main business by
    any means, maybe it was Thomas who ran the Saw Making part of the business, hence his name gets
    stamped on the saws.


    I forgot to mention, compare the handle on 4, with the taylor in the gallery, very similar, but
    not the same, possibly made by the same saw handle maker?

    I am still wondering about the \"German Steel\" mark.

    Joshua Moss goes on to become Moss & Gamble, 1854-1900 Franklin Works , \"and New York and Boston\" I am wondering if the departure of Joshua Moss is perhaps related to the arrival about the same time of Thomas Buxton Hawksworth in the business. Given that they are both saw makers, maybe Thomas was brought into the business to take over the role of Joshua Moss, or perhaps the arrival of Thomas precipated Moss\'s departure. The two events are probably related.
  14. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    Many thanks Ray and great work on what I thought was a relatively obscure saw manufacturer and company. Saw sighting anyways. I hadn\'t included the pic of the \"German Steel\" back but here it is for comparison. What I thought would have been the first part of the Thomas B is missing but with a very faint letter before the Hawksworth. Sizing and spacing a completely different from the previous two saws or are we looking at this backward and this may have been earlier saw with an earlier Hawksworth name that isn\'t quite evident. The saw doesn\'t have that \"stylistic feel\" that it is earlier than the other two but they may have had a different handle cutter or if a lower quality, less flare. [​IMG]
    Joe Steiner
  15. ray

    ray Guest

    Hi Joe,

    Thanks for the comments,

    In the early days \"German Steel\" was considered desirable, and later became less
    so after \"crucible steel\" or \"cast steel\" came into favour, nonetheless some makers
    continued marketting secondary product lines as \"german steel\" for quite some time,
    as late as the early 1900\'s.

    Just what \"german steel\" means as far as the Hawksworth saw\'s is concerned is the
    bit I am not sure of.

    The last picture (of the makers mark), which saw does that coorespond to in the
    previous pictures?

  16. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    The pic belongs to the saw illustrated in #7 and #8.
  17. ray

    ray Guest

    Hi Joe,

    Because of the later look, I suspect that with saw 3 we are looking at a secondary product line, rather than a premium product. It is known that German Steel was often used in the secondary products later.

    The makers mark, is interesting, I am wondering if it may have been after
    Thos.B. moved on.

    The \"Sheffield\" and \"German Steel\" look to be accurately marked and then with a separate stamp the \"?.HAWKSWORTH\" added afterwards less accurately. The last \"H\" is stamped over the \"G\" slightly.

    As you know, stamps can be all over the place, depending on who was doing it on any given day.

    If it were made after Thos.B left, then perhaps they had saws made by another maker who just manually added the \"HAWKSWORTH\" stamp to an already completed saw, complete with the \"Sheffield\", \"German Steel\" already machine stamped on the back.

    One way of testing this theory would be to find other saws of similar handle style and see if there is any correlation with a known maker, preferably one who used steel back as well as German Steel.

    Which, now that I come to think of it is precisely why I set up this site in the first place, so that with a bit of research and lots of examples, some of these contradictions can be resolved.

    Also, when I move to a faster server, next week (I hope) I will be letting more people know about the site, and a few more opinions always helps.


    PS, The forum message view font, and font size, seems to me to be a bit too small, what do you think?

    Changed verdana, seems to be what all the other forums are using.
  18. Joe S

    Joe S Guest

    I have no problems with the font being set to \"standard\" at this point. My monitor has been adjusted to what I deem as acceptable with my \"no need for glasses\" issues and at this point I am comfortable with the way it has been set up.
    The prospect of a \"picture show\" with more examples that might help with some of the atypical saws and the anomalies of a couple of century\'s of saw making is intriguing and I am looking forward to the site\'s growth that you have set in motion. Keep it coming.
  19. ray

    ray Guest

    Hi Joe,

    Changed layout, to what I hope is easier to navigate. Rather than clutter this thread, I will move back to the test thread.

  20. Barleys

    Barleys Most Valued Member

    To medallion or not

    Greetings to all
    Not being yet very adept at navigating the site, I came across this thread rather by accident the other day, and was very interested, because I'd not previously come across Thomas B Hawksworth.
    I went through the appropriate directories in Sheffield's Local Studies Library, and found enough to put together the following [ in it, TKB stands for Tweedale's Sheffield Knife Book, and his second edition, which is called Tweedale's Directory of Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers 1740-2010 - it is a very high class piece of research, and has much information about saw makers]
    1 Arundel Lane 1837-1845
    1 (3) Arundel Lane 1849-1852
    1 Arundel Lane & Carlisle Works 1856
    Carlisle Works, Carlisle Street 1859-1862
    Carlisle Street East 1864-1884
    Also Sutherland Street 1879-1884
    Started in 1825 by two cutlers, John Wilson and John Wilson Hawksworth (not listed as saw makers). They made high class butchers’ knives, and were one of the first Sheffield firms to establish a reputation in America. Joseph Ellison was their American representative. Joshua Moss left to join the Moss & Gamble partnership (TKB). Thomas Buxton Hawksworth was probably the son of a file maker, even though on the face of it he would be more likely a relative [?son] of the founder; he is listed first in 1841 as a clerk, and then in 1853, still a clerk (without any indication of where he was employed), living at an address adjacent to Joshua Moss. Three years later, still at the same address, he becomes the standard “merchant and manufacturerâ€￾ with Wilson and Ellison. Three more years later he had moved to a much more desirable address; his last listing in the old style of the firm was 1876, when he was living in Newton Abbot, Devonshire [the equivalent for a 19th cent Sheffield merchant of Florida]. In 1884 the firm was named with him as first partner; he died in 1888. Saws with his name alone have been recorded in the USA (see Hawksworth). Taken over by Kayser, Ellison, who used the name on some of their products.
    1879: general merchants and manufacturers of crucible cast steel, cast steel wire for all purposes, double extra special gas steel, shear, sheet, homogenous and blister steel, bearing and buffer springs, saws and shovels, engineers’ files, hammers and tools.
    Neither of the marks illustrated, which bear the single word “Wilsonâ€￾ as the maker’s name, can be definitely attributed to the partner in this business, but current information offers no better candidates; the assumption has been made that Wilson perhaps operated under his own name alone before going into partnership, or that the partnership itself chose to be named thus, rather as they chose to have some saws marked with Hawksworth’s name alone. Wilson was a very common Sheffield surname."
    I've not included the Wilson marks here, as they aren't very clear pictures.
    The word Sheffield in italic script was a usage of the 1850-1860 period.
    If Joe were willing to send me a close-up of the marks on his back saws, I would like to be able to include them in the book I have on the stocks (nearly finished!), as this is a completely new name to me.
    Other small points: blind medallions are fairly common - more on hand than back saws, I think - in the 1850-1870 period. Some makers used them much more than others. It's unusual to have such a big one on a back saw.They would have been cheaper to buy and fit than medallions, but still pretty impressive.
    German Steel was used on second or worse qualities of saw, hence the less good handle; it was probably a kind of worked-up shear, blister or cementation steel; went out pre 1914 probably because cheaper kinds of cast steel became available.
    Best wishes Simon