Hello, Looking for info on the saw mark Colbeck. Looking at saw makers of North America He is listed as from the US but nothing else. Wondering in the time since the books printing if any new information has come to light. I will post a few pictures tonight. thanks Joe
Joe, Very little info, but I. Colbert is listed in the HSMONA book, but doesn't list the location or dates, just having a reference of SAW. From the Reference list: SAW - Saw in possession of a Collector Not much to go by...
OK, took a few pictures yesterday. The split nuts are still out as I tend to leave the handle off when sharpening if it's already removed. The plate on this one is borderline but considering it's most likely early or mid 1800's, anyone? anyone? I'm going to see how it sharpens up. It's straight but has some pits at the tooth line that might break off the teeth when I sharpen, we'll see how it goes. When I knocked on the plate I found it was originally set in about 1/4 at the toe but over the years it looks like that grew to over and inch. The handle needed a small piece of the horn replaced but other then that it's in good shape Any who, if anyone has guesses to the age my ears are open. Joe
Hi Joe and all, I will be the first to admit that I know less about American saws than British ones and so that makes my lack of knowledge legion. However, and this is a silly thing to say because I have no proof whatsoever - are you sure that it is American and not British. It just looks to me like a British saw and especially the font and the mark. I have come across many times in HSMOB a saw identification attributed to "saw in the hands of a collector". I am not sure whether any have been completely right and some downright wrong. Having said that, to attribute a saw to the wrong continent would be a first and I am very reluctant to suggest it with any certainty. On top of it all I cannot find I Colbeck in any of the directories (British) and so this does not reinforce my case at all!!!!!! But, with there being no place of manufacture on the saw, it may be a brand as opposed to a maker in their own right and they would not appear in any directories (British or American). This, of course is a complete WAG but if it is a British saw and the mark just visible between "Cast" and "Steel" is not a dot but a blemish in the metal, then I would put it at the middle of,or the third quarter of the 19th century. (Chamfered back but a relatively flat face to the handle). If it is American, then I am lost completely. Hoping it helps but suspecting that it won't Fred
Hey Fred, I kind of feel the same way but I have so little time into saw collecting and history that to go against what both Erwin Schaffer lists in his book and Phil Baker seconds seem a little presumptuous of me. ;-) I did also find one one listed on "the Best Things" site for sale and it's got a London style handle. He does say the nuts were replaced. .
Hi Joe, Thanks for posting the other saw with the "London Flat". I say London Flat because it does not have the full cheeks of a "proper" London pattern handle with a flattened bottom horn, but all the hallmarks of a later reproduction. If you showed me that in isolation I would, with little hesitation say that it was British, an1870/80+ cheapie and a brand. I believe that there is varnish on the handle, but perhaps not the dreaded orange/yellow stuff but varnish it is and for me this is an extra indication of approximate age. I should know whether saws with London Flats were made in America, but I don't. If they weren't, then that should clinch it as British. Does anyone know?? Fred
There is really no hard and fast rule, and I've seen some that are similar from America, but we need to remember that the period when the London Pattern was most popular did in fact pre-date most American companies. It wasn't until the mid 1800s when most American companies surfaced, and Disston was pushing a lot of that effort in manufacturing their own steel, as well as buying up most all the big sawmakers that sprouted up. But many of the London Pattern style handles were started in the early 1800s, and that pre-dated much of that. Not entirely and we still see that style with slotted screws, so it certainly lasted a long time... The saw which Joe originally posted looks like a saw from the U.K., and the handle to me looks like it could be beech. Rarely do we find beech handle saws in America. But the pictures were not clear enough on the handle to tell if it is beech or not, entirely, I'd like to see more or get a clarification from Joe. The shape of the handle is definitely British. We don't see handles with the nice rear curve to them on American saws, but of course that is arguable. Here's the odd thing. I did check a couple nights ago in the HSOB book thinking just like you, it looks British and has the "Cast Steel" which is seen mostly on British saws also, but I saw no Colberts at all, as you. The only reference is in the HSMONA, and specifically that it was in a collection of someone. So, Erv didn't have anything factual other than it was in someone's collection and we don't know what that saw looked like, Erv may have not even seen it himself...that I don't know for sure. Bottom line, I would say it's a British saw, but what do I know... It is a nice saw, great looking open handle (original saw in this thread, not the London Pattern) and the fact there is one that Joe found that does look British also, kinda points all fingers to a British saw. That's my story and I'm sticking with it!
About the handle: It has some "rays" that I tend to associate with beach wood but not as much as I normally see. That could have to do with the softer angles and no large sections of end grain. When I cleaned up the horn for the repair I was 90% sure it was Beach and that's what I used. I do not think it's a fruit wood like apple. Joe
Bingo, I just found it. It is a British company. Constantine Brothers Sheffield 1856-1900 68 & 70 Hollis Croft Marks: F. CONSTANTINE, BATTISON & Co., I. COLBECK, PORTERS I was just looking at the handle and thought, "this has to be British", it just looked too good to be American...lol In looking through the C index of HSMOB I spotted it by accident...go figure...
Well I guess it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, It must be a duck! cheers for help guys! JFF
Here's a few pic of the full saw after sharpening and the nuts reinstalled. There is a little pitting at the tooth line up front but considering the age and the steel it really is impressive how well it cuts. I used it to cut some practice Dovetails and it worked as well as any of my modern saws. Joe
Hi all, Just a post-script to this one now that the saw is complete and looking very well indeed. About 18 months ago I sat down with HSMOB and made an alphabetical list of all the brands that were attributed to primary makers. It took a fair while to do. And what didn't I do with this saw? - why, look at it!!! It stares me in the face from my desktop every time I open the computer. It would have saved an awful lot of effort and anguish as, just as Alan found the mark in HSMOB so it is in my Saw Brands word document. Never mind, I will look there next time if there is one. Fred
Joe, No, it's the "Hand Saws Makers of Britain". It's the second book that Erv Schaffer and Don McConnell wrote. This compliments "Hand Saw Makers of North America", which Erv Schaffer wrote. NA is only available in electronic form nowadays. Britain is still available in hard copy. HSMONA HSMOB
Thanks Alan, I have both of his books, I was holding out for a printed copy of the US makers but the only one I've see went at auction for over 100.00 so buying the PDF and printing out was a way better option for me. I did find this image online after you id the makers.
Hi Joe, I dont know if you use the online Historical Directories for British saw makers but if you don't, here's the link http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/findbykeyword.asp or just Google Historical Directories on the UK site and go to find by Keywords. The reason that I post this is that in Whites (Sheffield) 1879 and Kelly's (Sheffield) 1901 - (I think but could be Whites - I have it printed off but have lost the publisher in the process) there are a whole load of firms and their trade marks including saw manufacturers. I think that Ray took the trademarks that are on this site from the 1901 directory. There is also of course "Trademarks on Base Metal". I think that the link is this. http://www.sha.org/documents/research/Parks_Canada_Resources/Trademarks on Base-Metal Tableware.pdf but am not sure as it takes an age to download on my computer and I have given up waiting. Sorry if I am teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but it may be useful to someone if not you. Fred Tell me if the link is wrong and I will erase it.