Gregg

Hello all,

An enigmatic saw for the new year and which I hope can be made less so with your help. It is enigmatic, possibly because it has been extensively bodged in the past.

When I first saw this on Ebay, I initially bypassed it because I thought that it had been cut down from a larger saw. And it may well be the case that it has. I still don't know even though I can handle and look at it.

The name is way too near the handle to be a conventional placing (thus the cut down notion). But then I saw Joe's John Sanderson saw with the name towards the handle and decided to take another look. I suppose that one of the ways that might resolve it would be to drill out the rivets and see if there are any stamps under the rather small but quite cute chamfer. But I am not going to do that.

The blade is 9 3/8th inches long and the handle seems far too chunky for this size of saw ( and it is a closed type). Although the back and blade fit well enough into the handle for there to be little doubt that they belong together. But on this size of saw??

The other probelms are "Gregg" and the age of it.

The only Gregg that I can find is a tool dealer in a Post Office directory of London around the turn of the century. (I forget which - poss. 1895). Now if this is an 1895 saw, then I am going to give up and go home. Although I am at home so I will just give up.

It has been a quality saw in its day (the brass back is just 1" wide and with a small chamfer to the bottom although no overhang at the front), and so I hope that "London" is an indicator of quality rather than place. Age I would hope 1850-ish, possibly pre.

Before Alan gets too excited over the handle fixings, I will hazard a guess that they are replacements for brass split nuts. Although they have some age to them and have been done three-quarters competently. Whilst I would love for them to be original, I have grave doubts that the saw is that old.

The last bit of interest for me on this saw is that it has suffered some traumatic event in the past that has split and taken a chunk out of the lamb's tongue and removed the top horn.

So it basically boils down to a request re Gregg and if anyone knows or can find this particular one.

Fred.

Ps A cautionary tale re saw buying on Ebay. Do not put a silly price on a saw never expecting to have to pay it. It may just be that there is lunatic as daft as you are. Apologies to the underbidder if they read this, but I ascribe no greater or lesser a status to you than I do to myself.

 

Might be a connection, (although a saw is not a plane).

I found a reference to a GREGG, supposedly listed in British Planemakers as a tool maker and dealer, 27 Sloane Square Chelsea 1861-1872.

Just a WAG, (no excuse to stop researching ! )

Happy New Year

 

Thanks Kiwi,

Could well be. There are no online directories for London that I can find between 1852-ish and 1892-ish and I do not have any other sources.

They are the Greggs (James) of the London 1899 directory presumably- (Trades and Professional, Toolmakers and Dealers 27 Sloane Square, p2444).

There is also a James Gregg in the 1852 small P.O. Directory of London, but he is listed as a working cutler and manufacturer of plumbers and glaziers edge tools. He is at 50 Tothill St., Westminster. I wonder if they are by chance related? I much prefer the 1850-ish date for this saw to the 1861+.

There are no likely candidates in the 1841 London directory

So I may not have to give up yet, unless someone comes up with a valid reason for the 1899 date.

Now all I need to know is - has it been cut down?

Fred

 

As an underbidder (half-hearted - I gave up pretty early on) I looked at this, and came to much the same conclusions as Fred: this is a messed up saw, shortened; it might be possible to arrive at its original length if you work from the assumption that the original mark would have been struck more or less at the centre of the distance from the forward-most part of the handle to the toe - was it ?14inches. It's been rehandled too, because 10inch (give him the benefit of the doubt) dovetail saws were always open-handled (not H Disston's, I know, but UK saws were). I'd guess that the rehandler made the handle himself, and did the rivetting.
I've got a Gregg backsaw that I've given the date of c1880, and a keyhole of c1900 (if I could upload them,I would, but my new year's resolution to learn how to do it has bumped up against a glitch on the site, I think, so I'll email them to Ray and see if he can manage it). I think it's exceptionally difficult to date a messed about saw, and with only two words to go on, it doesn't get much easier, but perhaps this one of Fred's is earlier than 1880 - I'd hardly dare be more definite than that.
It will have been a factored saw in the first place, I'm sure.

Here's my entry on him:

GREGG, James (1910: & Co) LONDON
50 Tothill Street, Westminster 1852>
27 Sloane Square 1861-1915>
Ironmonger, cutler and tool dealer; the Sloane Square premises were previously used by Udall.

I've not had access to the post 1915 directories, so can't say when he faded out; today's Sloane Square is not exactly stiff with ironmongers.

 

Simon,

One thing I was curious of, in regards to the above saw, is if the font tells us anything. I know you've done some study on fonts, and the font appears to be different between the OP's saw from auction, and the images you posted.

Does that tell us anything about dates? When did the fonts change, or were each company different? Seems much of that font history you were researching was on Spear & Jackson, so maybe that wouldn't apply. However I seem to remember you mentioning something about London fonts and/or Sheffield fonts in general.

Of course it really does look as if it's been cut down to me, in regards to having similar look of the early 1800s, when typical backsaws were approx. 12" - 15". It would seem that 14" would put the name in the middle of the back.

Fred,

Have you measured the thickness of the saw plate? Most smaller saws in the 8"-10" range has thinner saw plates, although not all. The look of the steel does look like early 1800s to me, as does the handle, but what do I know...I'm just a saw hack...

 

Thank you all for the posts,

Simon,

There have been a number of saws on Ebay recently with with a maker's name and then a street name in London. Much as your pictured saws are. Although all have had split nuts (I think), I have thought that they may be around the turn of the century. I have no reasoned explanation as for why I think this. They just "Look" that age.

Similarly for this one, it just looks to me to be older. The stamp is simple and there are(were) only two, albeit largish, split nuts. I do think that the handle would have been native to the larger ?14"? saw and just transferred to this cut-down version. It is a very tight fit, even down to the cut-out round the brass back. In fact you would be hard pushed to get a better fit.

I was interested in your Sloane Square comment. I was going to make one to the effect that I bet they wish that they hadn't sold their premises. So now I have a saw (hopefully) from Tothill but possibly from Sloane Square, along with a palette knife/spatula from Harrods Ironmongers Brompton Road S.W.

Has anyone seen a Harrods saw? That would be a turn-up for the book. (Literally and metaphorically).

Alan,
You were probably right about the length of the saw unless the stamp was placed asymmetrically. Unfortunately, at the moment I am unable to measure the plate thickness. I have never owned a micrometer and my electronic calipers have suffered greatly from being trodden on. I must get some new ones.

Ray,

Fascinating about the American Greggs. Although my saw is almost certainly British, I wonder whether the two are related. After all, Kiwi kicked this bit off by his reference to Greggs as planemakers, and you have a couple on your list.

Fred

 

I really do wish this site wasn't so addictive - whenever I've spent an hour or two on it - learning, learning - I think I ought to have been doing something else, like trying to tidy the floor of my study so that I don't kick piles of books around whenever I pick my way round them to the computer.
So: looking again at the font on this, I think it may well be as early as the early days of Mr Gregg in Sloane square - 1855-1865?? I wouldn't use the screws as a dating feature though, as they could have been bastardised from an old saw. Should it be a rule of dating, I wonder, to be firm only about the features that could not have been altered post-manufacture (like the struck mark)?
Alan - the subject of fonts is too big for here (have got a section in the book - apologies for the wait), but here the two words, and the elegance of the letters (serifs and all) - compare with the second mark (thanks, Ray!) where the letters are larger and are more spaced out. The "early" look is v difficult to pin down, and is maybe in the last analysis a matter of overall appearance.

I've seen a few "Harrod's" saws, all, so far, back saws made for them by Thomas Turner of Suffolk Road, Sheffield, book entry as follows.
"HARROD’S LONDON
Brompton Road 1834-present
Today the second largest department store in London; in spite of an extensive list of departments, tools do not now appear to be sold there".
(Will try the uploading page again, to see if I can transfer this mark).