I've got two of the earlier model Foley retoothers and both have been well used. One needs a new die, or at least ground down. reading over what I could find online the die's really weren't intending to be ground but I'm guess provided you shim I should be OK. Foley does still sell dies for 234.15 and that's about double what I paid for it. thanks in advance Joe
Joe, I'm not familiar with the older retoothers, but do have 2 of the 385s, and an extra set of dies. The question is if you have the carriers and ratchets for those???? If you don't I would look for a newer one, like the 385 and get carriers and ratchets for it. Can you post some pics of what the die looks like. I can take a pic of my extra dies for you to compare to. IMO, the retoother is the only useful tool, and it's worth having around for sure. EDIT: BTW, as far as sharpening the dies go, I would think that only sharpening the flat would be preferable. I haven't exactly figured out how the die works but it is fascinating as it only uses one set for all the different teeth, but is able to get the height correct as the TPI gets courser and vice versa. I would not touch the side of the dies, and try to keep them as original as possible, only sharpening the flat. They look like a big V and a big point that fits into the V. They are not carbide, so you should be able to stone them possibly.
BTW, I have a carrier that I think is from an older Foley, but not certain. I may actually have 2 of different types, but they do not fit my foley equipment. Some I had bought on ebay, and wasn't exactly sure what I was buying. There are various types over the years. If your machine uses these, you can have them if you like. I have a full set of ratchets for my retoothers and even sold a few to a friend who bought a retoother from me. Yes, believe it or not I had 3 retoothers. The third one I had was from an Estate sale which my blacksmith teacher (at the time) knew the sellers...it was almost new, as was one of mine that I use. The one I use had never had the tag taken off of it and was unused, but the rubber wheel they use on them had rotted. I got a new wheel from Foley for about $25. The hardest ratchet to find is the 16/8-1/2, Foley doesn't sell it anymore...I did buy a couple from Foley when I got my first batch of equipment, which didn't have any ratchets. All of this Foley equipment was designed by Rube Goldberg's cousin, IMO. My retoothers have some strange levers that turn them on/off. It's a long rod that run under the unit, and around the back, up to a toggle switch that it flips...it's the strangest design I've ever seen... I have a 387 filer I'd sell cheap if anyone is on the west coast...too heavy to ship unless someone REALLY wanted one...I think they are pretty useless, you can sharpen by hand. Also, seems to me that the retoothers were not used as much, and that most people that bought all the Foley equipment used the filers mostly... Foley was a marketing machine and sold all this equipment to people who believed they could make a living at sharpening. They provided credit to people who bought this stuff, and would train them as well...it was kinda like a cult... Many people went bankrupt as they should have never been in business for themselves anyway, but somehow Foley would get them to pay for most of the equipment it seems, as they are still in business...
sounds great hey Alen, thanks so much, it's my understanding that ALL the retoothers use the same die and punch but I will take a few pictures and post. I do have the standard set of carriers and bars but would very much LOVE to find the two optional 14-71/2 and 15-8-41/2 if you have either of them? my current setup will only go as high as 13 PPI. I too have 2 older filers I bought with them and would freely give away. I agree they seemed to be way more used the the retoother. I always keep my eyes open for the later models like yours but I think if your die will work I should be good to go. thanks so much Joe
Joe, Wasn't offering up my dies, but the carrier if it would fit yours. I'm saving my dies in case I need them in the future. You can find an entire retoother for about $25-$50. I paid only $25 for two of mine, and another came in a lot buy with a bunch of other foley stuff I bought for $100, included the all this stuff. There is a possibility I would sell the die, but seeing how much they cost, I would tend to keep it most likely. Where do you live? I occasionally watch for Foley equipment. These days I rarely see the ratchets. I've snapped up my share of them. Unfortunately I wouldn't sell my 15 or 16. The 15 TPI I bought from Foley for about $70. Since I think I found another, and I have 2 16s which I won't sell at any price. I pondered making some 17 and 18 ratchets, but it would be quite a bit of work to get the teeth correct. I think my horizontal mill would work for it with a gear cutter. All of the Foley stuff is so crude, it's not worth the effort, you can file teeth fairly easy using a hacksaw blade as a guide. But I have a couple carriers/ratchets that are one piece and the ratchet is not removable. If that would fit your equipment, those you're more than welcome to have for free. EDIT: I just did a ratchet inventory. I have: 3 x 8 / 4-1/2 2 x 9 / 5 2 x 10 / 5-1/2 1 x 11 / 6 2 x 12 / 6-1/2 2 x 13 / 7 2 x 14 / 7-1/2 1 x 15 / 8 / 4-1/2 2 x 16 / 8-1/2 / 4 ????? (not sure if this will do 4). I would trade one of my 8 / 4-1/2 for either an 11 / 6 or a 15 / 8 / 4-1/2, and I also believe the 15 / 8 / 4-1/2 is the hardest to find, it was ALWAYS an optional accessory. What I mean by that is that it was never available in a bundle. With most Foley equipment they gave up to 13 or 14, but 15/8/4-1/2 and 16/8-1/2 were optional and needed to be purchased separately. This is why there are few of them. However, I would only be interested in trading my triple for a duplicate of the 2 ratchets I only have 1 of, not to be greedy, but without the ratchets all of the equipment is worthless...hence $25-$50 for an excellent condition retoother. The 15/8/4-1/2 I have was purchased from Foley, and the cost was about $75, that was 5 years ago. I do not know if they have any more of them, but if you were looking for that specific, buying it from them could save yourself quite a bit of time and/or even money. Interesting that while I have 3 of the 8/4-1/2 ratchets, you can't cut a 15 on it, since the material is not there...IOW, you could go the other way and if it was 15/8, you could add 4-1/2 by splitting the teeth once again. Ah, that answers my question, it's an 16/8-1/2/4 because it has finer teeth than the 15/8/4-1/2. (that must be how it works, if that makes any sense to other people in that the finer teeth on the ratchet are for cutting the courser teeth of the ratchet set ). DISCLAIMER: the above dribble may or may not be true depending on what internet guru you talk to. (EVERYONE is an expert on the inet )
Joe, In follow-up to my last message, not knowing where you're located at, hard to say what may be useful for you, but there is a LOT of Foley equipment for sale, and I just found a ton of hits on craigslist for a retoother. So all of these listings have a retoother in them. FWIW, I wouldn't pay more than $100 even if one was really close, and would haggle to get one for $25-$50. Keep in mind that most people ask a fortune for this stuff thinking that the world wants it. Tell them to wake up and smell the roses...and move on to the next listing...there is just too much of it around. Eastern CT http://newlondon.craigslist.org/tls/2688871354.html http://newlondon.craigslist.org/tls/2759396396.html NY http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/tls/2763873527.html http://syracuse.craigslist.org/tls/2730673387.html South Jersey http://southjersey.craigslist.org/tls/2752113749.html Washington DC http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/tls/2766347753.html Southern IL http://carbondale.craigslist.org/tls/2762553403.html Minneapolis http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2739152437.html http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2722348093.html http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/2712737089.html Arkansas http://fayar.craigslist.org/tls/2730157175.html Denver CO http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/2711699457.html East Idaho http://eastidaho.craigslist.org/tls/2732026407.html
Alen Hey Alen, thanks I think. . . I have two sets of stock bars and carries and I would be willing to trade any of the bars as I don't really need 2 of everything, but I think your saying you wouldn't trade for either of you optional bars which is the only ones I'd need. As for the dies, that fine as well. I think for most people you would be hard pressed to need a backup but the machines I have were well used and I don't think they will ever see that type of production again. Thanks also for the for sale posts. I've contacted most of them already and they do not want to break up there sets. The few local to me, I'm in NJ, are older models like mine and they want as you pointed out way more then they are worth. Most people want 100-300 for the sets. I'm now quite good at setting them up adjusting the springs and readjusting the dies and cutters. That said buying a 3rd one. . . I'm not sure I have all the space. For some reason I can't seem to add the picture I took so I'll add them as links http://www.flickr.com/photos/adventurewagen/6564395141 http://www.flickr.com/photos/adventurewagen/6564394111/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/adventurewagen/6564395857/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/adventurewagen/6564396219/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/adventurewagen/6564396501/ If your interested in selling or trading for the dies or a bar that would cut 14, 15, or 16. you can email me direct. joefederici(at)earthlink.net Joe
Essentially I have 2 machines, and ideally would like to have 2 sets of ratchets in case I wanted to sell one. I sold a retoother to a friend of mine and gave him a mostly complete set, so I had close to 3 sets of ratchets at one time. No 15 or 16 TPI for him though. I only have 2 carriers, I gave one to a friend when he bought the retoother. I think the carriers could be made pretty easily, no rocket science there, but the ratchets are another story... All of this equipment is worthless without the carriers and ratchets, so anyone selling them without these has worthless equipment, IMO. Keep offering $50 and eventually someone will bite. The filer is what people ask the most money for, and the most useless, IMO. I'm not clear on the dies, mine may be different. I will get pic to compare. I have never had the dies out of a retoother so not sure what needs to be sharp on the, I thought it was the very point which looks ok on your dies. To be honest, this is why I'm not crazy about selling my dies, because of space it takes to store all this stuff. As it is, I have a 387 filer I would like to get out of my garage, which is just taking up space. The dies are small and don't take up hardly any space. This is my extra set, they are used already. Are you saying that Foley charges that much for these little dies ? These look like they should cost about $40. I put a ruler in front to note the size. With all of that said, just take the flat down, you can lap it on sand paper if you need to. Just keep it flat and remove metal until the top is flat and the edge is not worn. The distance that the dies travel is greater than the top edge, so you have wiggle room to play with, your dies are fixable IMO.
Joe, Take your dies to a guy who sharpens shaper cutters, they can sharpen those up for you, IMO. It is just the flat that needs to be touched up.
The punch and die you have are the same as the ones I have and it's my understanding our two units are the same over all. They just beefed up the way the carrier feeds on your later model then on mine and made a smaller footprint. Your extra punch is missing the screw, shims and bolt. but I guess you could take that off the unit you would be replacing. Taking them out isn't that big of a deal you loosing two set screws and just follow the manual. One thing I have is 2 complete set of carries, there are 3 styles, straight saw, crown saw, and back saw. I also have a few other carriers that aren't drilled for bars but do work with the filer and retoother. I'll contact a friend who knows a bit more about machining parts and see what he thinks your correct they just need to ground flat. The only issue will be shimming the die. I don't think that was designed to be ground. The punch can have shims added to take up the space. They should both be flat do your spare punch looks to have been poorly ground by the last owner. If your interested I would trade one of my carriers for one of your 14 / 7-1/2 bars. Joe
Yes, they are the same in that regard, in comparing the pics I think that is correct. Mine aren't in great shape either, they certainly aren't new. These came with some carriers and ratchets. Both the backsaw and straight carriers are the same, I have 2 of those. I don't have the crown, but I don't have any crown saws. I have mostly backsaws actually, I only own 3 full size saws, one crappy Craftsman I got at a yard sale...and a pair of Disstons that a friend traded me. All the rest of my saws are all backsaws. The difference between the backsaw and straight is only the attachment pieces, the carrier is the same. No, mine look like they probably hit each other, like yours. The problem is that Foley equipment is not top of the line precision equipment, this is stuff that was designed by Rube Goldberg, IMO! Look for more, it's all over. How do you think I ended up with so much of it myself? I started buying it, but was always missing pieces, and didn't get any ratchets the first batch. Since I bought 5 or 6 auctions on ebay, some produced usable stuff, others I have I can't use. There are more than one type of carrier. The modern type of carrier was shipped in pieces, you bolt it together. The only thing is the slot in the center, so it can slide up/down. Nuts and bolts and spacers between the track. You can make a much better one yourself, most likely. Even the way the ratchets slide into place, with the pin locking, you have to contort the ratchet every time you install/remove it. Look at this, a perfect example, these machines are designed by an idiot. Maybe the is the improved switch upgrade...??? Hardly, my 2 favorite sizes are 13/14 (xcut/rip) for my joinery saws. I wouldn't trade any of my ratchets other than the one I have 3 of, which is 8/4-1/2. I had to buy equipment to get most of my ratchets, or buy the one I didn't have from Foley. I bought two from Foley, a 14 and a 15. I don't want any of the equipment, I'm almost giving away a filer. These machines are so problematic to setup, cause they rotate on 2 axis, it's a sloppy fit. But it means you really need to test it before cutting your plates. IOW, going from xcut to rip, because the way the rake is controlled is another rat's nest in itself, or what I refer to as the 2 axis above, there's a screw set on each side of the unit. What is wrong with the teeth that yours stamps??? I don't understand, the portion that I believe does the cutting looks ok on yours. However, I have a 9" long piece of .020" 1095, 2" wide, which is stamped with 16ppi. You can have it for Xmas for free, just send me your address in a private message if you want it. It is basically for a dovetail saw with a 9" blade. Oh, BTW, my name is "Alan".
Hey Alen, thanks for all the info, and happy Holidays. My issue that started this all off was just sloppy cut teeth and the paw not staying engaged on the paw. I started by fixing the paw issue which was due to the spring that lost tension over the years. Foley did have two left so I bought them and that fixed both the machines. Both machines were from different areas and both had the same problem. I kind of bought the second one for parts but that didn't work out well. Next I read through the manual and and cut a few old rusty saws I had and the teeth cut OK on one and quite bad on the other. Grinding the top piece wasn't an issue but I don't own a miller or big grinding so the die was out of the question. I think as you said I can find a local place to grind it flat for me and reinstall and aline better. I will keep my eyes open on ebay for a 14 or a 15. If you hear of any I'd be interested. I'll let you know about the 11 your looking for. I find quite a bit of the 31/32 model retoothers in this area and most have the standard set of bars included. I've never see a 14 or 15 bar but I've only been looking for 6 months or so. Joe
As I have stated, ALL of this equipment is very temperamental. Getting it working is tricky in some cases, it's all adjusted so oddly...it really is horrible equipment, but it's some of the only equipment designed to cut saw teeth. Originally Foley sold all the equipment to people so they could become sharpening centers, and the equipment was fairly pricey, but Foley would give credit, run specials, and get things sold. Because of that, most think it's really valuable...but what they forget is that most edge tools these days are much more modern tool steels and/or carbide, and most of it can't be shapened by Foley equipment. Some does carbide, but not much. So, most of this equipment is pretty useless, other than the retoothers. My gut tells me that your dies will cut just fine, although I don't know how they were damaged, looks like a backsaw back could have been jammed in there possibly, not sure. The point looks ok on yours and it should cut teeth just fine, IMO. You just need ratchets. I think it would be fairly trivial for most sharpeners to flatten them up. I'll let you know if I hear of any for sale, there is a chance a friend of mine may have duplicates he may want to sell, but I'll be very honest...most people are in the same boat as you. As I have explained, so was I and it took me a lot of time and aggravation to obtain the ratchets I have. I have been getting rid of the equipment I had to buy to get the ratchets, although most of it was from my initial purchase. Keep watching Ebay, I have won auctions for carriers/ratchets, once I got 13 ratchets in one auction. I paid about $130 + shipping, but it was worth it considering that they came out to about $10/ratchet. If you want a filer, you can have a 387 in great condition, I don't want to pack it though. You would have to pay me to pack it and would need to pay shipping, so it wouldn't be worth it for you, even if it was free, IMO. You have way more tools available back in CT than I do out west, although Foley was out west, they shipped way more of it back east.
Joe, What about this guy in Jersey???? Says he'll sell separate or all. Seems it would be worth offering him $50-$100 for the retoother. Have you contacted him already? http://southjersey.craigslist.org/tls/2752113749.html
Hey Alen, Thanks for the info. First I had a good day yesterday and sold off my two old filers I had to buy with the two retoothers. They were the older style 200 and I was happy to get 100.00 for the two of them and the buyer seemed happy as well. I also gave him the power setter, did not even try that out but figured he might have fun with it. With the 100.00 I went to see a friend that buys and sell a lot of tool, saws not really being a big money thing he puts them aside. Most if not all are panel saws, I got 3 that will need some work but will make good users. 2 Richardsons from Newark NJ, 1 older Diston and one I'm not sure but I think once cleaned I can get a name off it. OK back to the retoothers: One thing your friends might be interested in is I do have full sets of the bars in the standard 5 sizes and I also have the 3 types of carriers so if they need any of that stuff I would trade. You are also correct the dies I have did cut but I'm mostly doing full 20" or longer panel saws and I wasn't sure it was really cutting as good as it could. You could feel the ridges on the backside of the blade when I was done and I would expect that's never going away completely but I think it could be better? I guess we'll see I gave the dies to my friend and he said he could look at them this week. The guy in Jersey I've emailed with and he's holding to the idea that he can sell everything together. He said he'd let me know when he's ready to sell in pieces. He just has the standard set of bars and considering I already have two full sets I'm not sure a 3rd will really get me any closer to my goal. Plus the retoother is the same as the two I currently have. Most of these guys in my area want 200-300 for everything but as you and I have pointed out. They just aren't worth it. The guy in CT I've talked with as well. He's got a nice filer but the retoother is missing the bars so it's not really worth the trip to go get it just to inspect the dies and hope they are in good shape. Joe
When you say "I do have a full set of bars", what do you mean by that? There are ONLY carriers and ratchets, AFAIK. This is not clear to me what you mean, sounds like it leaves a burr on the back of the saw blade. That should sharpen off of there, no??? Sure, and pigs will fly out my @$$ also... <sarcasm> I mean, that equipment must be worth a fortune, look how much it sold for when new???? <sarcasm> What is wrong with these idiots, they do not sell it, it just sits listed for outrageous prices...it is worth what it is worth, and that is what someone will pay for it. If you want the dies it does. Most all the Foley equipment is useless, other than the retoother. My $0.02...
I can't remember exactly what the standard set was, but think it included the 14/7-1/2/4 with it also. The 15 and 16 were definitely optional.
Just an update for anyone interested. I did have good luck sharpening the two cuters and dies I had for my 2 retoother and think I have located some of the harder to find 14,15,16 ratchet bars I've been hunting for. I will need to buy another retoother in the process and at this point I will have more sets then I need. If anyone is interested in buying a complete set and lives in the North East please pmail me. jfederici(at)limitedbrands.com I'm also happy to help out if your just looking to fix up an old saw with new teeth. thanks Alan and others. Joe
Joe, Good that you found some ratchets and also that you can sharpen the dies, which I thought would be possible. They just need to be flat in the areas they are worn on the edges, so having someone grind the flat should be all that is needed. Presumably that is what you had done. Like everyone, it typically takes a few purchases to get what you need, I was no different. I did find out recently that the power setter could have some use to it, it seems you can set bandsaw blades with it, so that might actually come in handy for my sawmill. The blades seem to loose set quickly on a sawmill, and especially after you sharpen them. I'm not clear on how the bands get advanced though, since you wouldn't have a ratchet on them, the power setter must work without the ratchets possibly. That is not clear to me.