decorated saw nuts

Another example of a different decoration on flat-top raised saw nuts, acquired this weekend at an Ontario farm sale. (screw decoration was recently discussed in the "F Constantine" thread)
Its a 28" rip saw, blade has a nib, 5ppi teeth, with ppi graduated near the toe to 7ppi
Apart from the decorated screws, another interesting feature of the handle are the nibs located within the vee at the top and bottom of the grip
I don't know the maker, A partial etch reads "The Lion Saw" with a "Patent, Tempered" banner on the right, and maybe "warranted" below.
I'd guess it dates from early 1900s, could be English or N American.

Anyone seen this design of screw before,
or recognise any part of this etch,
or this shape handle ?
Any guesses as to the maker ?

 

Nothing in my database of British saws/makers (doesn't necessarily mean much) - -I'd put more money on a US than a British maker, although I can't find it in the EAIA directory.
Good hunting! (no pun intended). Simon

 

Hello All!

Ironicaly, trying to find info on a similar saw was what lead me to this site!

It also is a 28" rip. It's teeth graduate from 5ppi to 6ppi. The blade is in good shape but quite rusty. Only the faintest hint of a similar etch can be seen...I might even be imagining that I see part of the banner.

The handle, however, is quite different. While sporting the same decorated saw nuts, it has a much simpler design. It also incorporates a steel plate. When I found the saw, I thought the handle had been a PO's embellishment, until I found the patent stamped on the handle. As best I can tell, it reads Pat. June 7(3?), 18(71?). The June is quite legible, but the numbers are hard to read.


here is a link to a larger image of the date
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5077/5874845431_53d723a260_b.jpg

Anyway, I have been enjoying the site tremendously, and have been working my way through the posts. The information has been fascinating, and I am amazed at the work being done by all you saw makers!

mut

 

Nice find G&C

I think your patent date refers to Holden's Pat, No 216,091 , patented June 3 1879, which claimed the invention of the thumb notch in the top of the handle. [DATAMP lists Wheeler Madden & Clemson as a manufacturer of this patent which confirms Ray's saw ID]
If you haven't already done so, you could look for a blade etch [hopefully the same as shown in Ray's picture] I find the best method to do this is by using a razor blade to carefully scrape off the blade rust without scratching the steel plate, then using a hardwood sanding block with 400 wet/dry sandpaper lubed with WD40 or mineral spirits, checking frequently for signs of an etch.
Since your decorated saw nuts are almost identical to mine [slightly different centre] I suspect my saw was also made by WM&C, or their successors

 

Saw nuts

Here is a saw I have with similar nuts and a walnut handle. I have been told it is a secondary line made by Wheeler, Madden & Clemson. Thanks, Tom

 

Nice saw Tom! I definitely appreciate the eloquence of the handle. Does the lack of the thumb grip present on mine and Kiwi's mean that yours isn't a rip saw? I can't help but notice the similarities between yours and the "cresson" that Matt talks about over on his "Saw Blog". http://thesawblog.wordpress.com/2011/02/26/a-cresson-saw-with-class/

In a following post he shows pictures of saw nuts. While they do not share the decorations that ours have, they seem pretty close. My curiosity made me wonder if all the fancy ones might be made by one company who distributed them to saw makers. I decided to compare the screws from my two saws.



the one on the left is from my W,M & C; the one on the right is from my Boynton (which has the screws resembling those from Joe's F. Constantine).




(note in the middle picture the Boynton's are on the left)

In Glovers patent, he specifically declares his style screws to be an improvement to the type of screws using the technique of swaging the head to the shank of the screw. To me it looks like the Boynton's are certainly of this "inferior" type. They also lack the "integral projections" to keep the screw from turning.

Looking through the saws over at the Disstonian Institute, there is a D-12 in the "interesting saw gallery" with the domed brass nuts. It mentions that this style were used breifly during the 1870's until a better saw nut was developed. That would certailny coincide with the patent date on the W,M & C.

Kiwi, I tried looking for the Etch using the razor method, and I was having a hard time with it. I can see it's there, but there is also a weird layer of rust that isn't responding well to the razor or fine paper. I have an electrolysis tank set up in the garage for rust removal. I'm going to try giving it a soak in there. My other friends have been pushing me to try citric acid. Have you ever tried that?

mut

 

I have never tried this, but Simon in one thread somewhere on this site has referred the use of garnet paper for rust. He says that it is hard enough to remove rust, but not so hard as to scratch the steel. Having said that, I have found nothing in the abraisive line that removes the black staining left when all the surface rust is removed.

What I have found is when trying to decipher etches/stamps that are worn is to use a low energy lightbulb that is verging to the yellow/orange part of the spectrum. (As opposed to the ones giving a blue/white light).The light is quite soft and not intense enough to give bad reflected glare. Then, of course the viewing angle is critical. This especially good for picking out detail on photographs. In fact there have been times when I have photographed the mark from very close to (ie. the end of the lens virtually touching the mark) without being able to see it properly, then when you look at the photo, marks can be visible that you do not see with the naked eye.

Electroysis sounds interesting. Do you have any "before and after" photos of saw blades that you could post so that we can see the effects of doing it?

On one of the very early saws of Joe's that he posted, it looked as though he had used some sort of liquid cleaner to bring out the stamp. (Apologies if it was some other method Joe, but if it was a cleaner, could you tell us what it was - see image below)?

Fred

 

Hey Fred et al...
As for the "Rogers and Sons" saw you referenced, I have never used a chemical to clean a saw. That particular saw may have had a previous owner do something like that to it. I have had the saw a bunch of years and I went and looked at it again to see what you may be seeing. It does look likes something has been done chemically but I can tell you I also may have lightened some of the areas in trying to expose the name and this pattern is what you see. I knew the saw was special and I didn't want to mess with it too much.
My method of rust removal in an specific area includes scraping with a very well honed old 1 " Marples chisel that won't leave scratches. There are absolutely no burs or sharp edges and all I do is scrape to expose what I hope is an etch or stamp. I sometimes sand with 600 paper or OOOO steel wool to smooth it out. I also follow you faint light method Fred. Everything is waxed and so this is what you may be seeing in the picture.
Hope this helps.
Joe S

 

I counsel against using citric acid or electrolysis on spring steel. The process causes hydrogen embrittlement. In the case of say the spring in dividers, the spring can snap when being derusted in either soup. Now I have not tried either with saws, and agree with the scrape followed by wet+dry paper on a hard block.

Cheers
Peter

 

I've tried citric acid and electrolysis, and although they remove rust they don't seem to help much in deciphering faint saw blade etches, and I don't like the way they accentuate the pitting, or the dull grey finish that electrolysis leaves on a saw plate.
However I would use these methods, or vinegar or evaporust, for other old tools or parts that can be wire brushed and heavy sanded or polished afterwards

It's worth trying all the various methods to see how they work for you, but I wouldn't recommend your first attempt being on anything you really like

 

Wow! Thanks for the heads up! I do remember cleaning a pair of dividers in vinegar, and having the spring snap. As an aside- Never use Vinegar! Well that might be a bit strong...Never use it on your tools...

Anyway, I have a blade in the process of being shocked, but it's not one of the good ones. I found an old Warranted Superior with a nice handle, great medallion, and a sizable Kink. I thought it would be a good first candidate for restoration. It's been in there about a day, so I'm sure the damage is done. Maybe I'll give the blade a good torque in the name of science...

Anyway, I'm not so sure I'm crazy about the results. While the rust is coming off, it needs to be tended to periodically to assist with the removal. I'm not seeing the etch appear any better than with the other methods, either.

In retrospect (and after a bit more reading) I think I was taking the razor/ fine paper method a bit to casually. I am committed to giving it a more serious go, and have already found my candidates: A somewhat neglected Sheffield Warranted Superior and a Keystone Saw with the airplane etch...

mut

 

Hey Tom
I am including pictures of a walnut saw handle similar to yours but different. It has one less notch at the top and a lot less vertical in nature. Frustratingly I can't read the etch but I know there is one, just indecipherable.
A few years ago I included pictures of a saw of mine on Wiktors site of a Bakewell and Co #3 that had the plate and raised nuts.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws...akewell-WMB-No3-Backsaw/Backsaw-WMB-No3-1.asp
Those nuts were without any "fancification" and I never put two and two together figuring this walnut handled saw may have been a developement of W M and C line.
If someone has a clear etch I might be able to piece it together for verification.
Thanks
Joe S.

 

dome nuts, help with maker

Just wondering if anyone did find the answer to if this was a lower grade WM&C saw.

I picked one up in RI last weekend. Its missing a few nuts which I'm sure I'll never find but the rest of saw and plate was in really good shape so I bought it. The handle needs a new top horn but that not a bad fix.

Joe

 

Those will be difficult to find, but they are around as there are handles floating around without the nuts, so those nuts must be somewhere...(most likely lost though...). You could probably make something similar yourself with some ingenuity and some brass.

 

Difficult to find an exact match of make and model for the saws you've shown.

The Joe S saw has a steel side plate the same as the WMC model 10 (Vernon & Co) in the 1871 WMC catalogue, although the handle shape is not an exact match
[ you can download this catalog from http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/MSW-WMC/pubs/pubs-index.asp ]
Note that by 1895 this WMC catalogue model 10 (Vernon & Co) looked completely different, as shown in the picture below (but maybe the etch matches the Joe S saw ? ) which demonstrates the unreliability of trying to match saw models from catalogues.

The Joe need2boat steel plate looks like the 1895 WMC catalogue saw No 2, although it only shows 3 screws and the handle shape differs, see attached picture (unfortunately the No2 is not shown in the 1871 catalogue)

Both of these plate shapes are also shown in other manufacturer's catalogues, but no-one notes that they provide decorated saw nuts.

So for me its still a bit of a mystery, unless someone finds a matching saw with a good etch declaring its maker

 

Thanks you kiwi for the info and scan.

From what I've learned it sounds like many of the us makers made dome/raised nut saws with metal plates. there were often a lower or secondary brand sold for heavy use no frills I guess.

The saw is in good shape so I'll leave it hand for now and hopefully either find something that fits or a way to make replacements. seems a shame but it may still have a future.

Joe