Tyzack 14" (10 PPI) brass backsaw dating

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by mikey, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. mikey

    mikey Member

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    16
    Hello everybody :),
    I'm an Italian woodworker and felt this was the right place to share my first backsaw purchase !!!
    I've disassembled the saw in order to clean it properly,
    and to fix some small issues with handle and saw plate straightness.
    I will keep updating thread during restoration,
    I hope you will enjoy ;).
    In addition to this I'm looking for some informations about the age of the saw,
    with its split nuts and handmade handle it looks quite old to me,
    But what is your opinion in regard ?
     

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    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  2. mikey

    mikey Member

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    At the moment I'm dealing with the lamb's tongue that has got one side broken,
    I'm glueing a couple of small beech pieces for carving the missing part !!!
     

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  3. mikey

    mikey Member

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    Also there is this intriguing name "A. Burdell" on the handle and on the brass back that would be very interesting to know something about !!!
     

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  4. kiwi

    kiwi Most Valued Member

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    Nice old saw Mikey,
    The saw is likely a bit more than 100yrs old (Simon Barley's reference book shows a similar spine mark that's estimated at about 1910)
    "A Burdell" would have been a previous owner, who stamped his saw to identify ownership. ( If you search that name in old census lists from the area the saw came from, there is a slight chance you might find a carpenter with that name )
    When you have renovated it to your satisfaction and have it back in good working order, I'm sure it will give you pleasure every time you use it.
     
  5. mikey

    mikey Member

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    Thankyou very much Kiwi for your help,
    I really appreciate !!!
    I've heard about 1st, 2nd and 3rd quality line saws ... How can I understand what quality is my saw ?
    Where do you find the informations I keep reading about on this forum ?
     
  6. mikey

    mikey Member

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    Lamb's tongue is almost back ...
    After quite a bit of work, with my only crap chisel,
    today I will give it its final shape !!!
     
  7. mikey

    mikey Member

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    Lamb's tongue back to its original shape, not perfect but quite good . . . now I just need to match the color !!!
    Next step repairing the top horn !!!
     

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  8. mikey

    mikey Member

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    I've fixed the top horn, again not a professional job but I'm quite happy with the result !!!
     
  9. mikey

    mikey Member

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    Matching the color was quite a long process, I have put on the horn several coats of different colors from yellow to dark brown and then I've used sand paper to give the horn a worn

    appearance !!!
     
  10. mikey

    mikey Member

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    This is the result :
     

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  11. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    1,057
    Hi Mikey,

    Matching the colours of wood, especially old wood is an art that I have never mastered, but you certainly have.

    I always find that once the first colour that is applied has soaked into the wood, (if it isn't right) then it is almost impossible to change it to any significant extent. But, as you have shown, there must be a way.

    I see that nobody has answered an earlier query that you made about the quality of saws and so I will have a go.

    The easiest way is to go to Simon's book British Saws and Saw Makers from 1660 and he normally tells you the lesser quality saws of the leading brands and their stamped names. For instance, you have a Tyzack Sons and Turner but he lists a number of trade and secondary quality saws made by this company, one of which is "Abbeydale".

    One rule of thumb for trying to determine the quality of saws is that if the manufacturing company puts their own name on the saw, then it is one of their 1st quality saws. Any other name probably means that it is a 2nd quality one. The only exception to this is that if something like "Farmer's Saw" or "Kitchen Saw" is part of the manufacturers mark. This indicates that the saw is not of the best quality as these saws were supposedly for only sporadic use (and in the case of Farmers, probably abuse), not the everyday grind a joiner's saw was subject to.

    Another indicator of quality is the type of steel that the blade is made of. Perhaps surprisingly, if the saw is stamped "Best Steel" it is probably one of the poorer quality steels and you then progress up to "spring steel" or "London Spring" as an indicator of top quality blades.

    I highlighted "their" in an above paragraph as not all makers of saws produced top rated blades. That is why Groves saws are sought after today as user saws as their steels were, generally speaking, excellent and still excel most of their contemporaries, and indeed, many saws manufactured today.

    Fred
     
  12. mikey

    mikey Member

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    Thankyou very much fred0325 for your appreciation, it makes my day a better day . . .
    Matching the color with one dye won't work, as I said I applyed around 5 layers of colors ending with the darker one,
    so that when you scrach the last coat applied, a different color stands out/ emerges from underneath, this procedure gives the wood a much more convincing texture.
    For this purpose I used tempera colors, they do not soak the wood so that if you make a mistake you can go back and start all over again !!!
    At moment I'm quite short of money but, as soon as I can, I need to have this book it looks a definitive milestone for understanding saw/sawmakers world !!!
    One last thing what quality is cast steel in relation to spring steel or london spring ?
     
  13. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    Hi,

    Any discussion of early steel making can be fraught as there is quite a bit of disinformation and misunderstanding out there, but I think that it is safe to say the Benjamin Huntsman introduced cast steel on an industrial level into Britain in the 1750's.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Huntsman

    Thereafter most saw blades were made of cast steel, although BSSM does state that some steels labelled "cast" were lower grade products (cementation or Blister steel), further processed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cementation_process

    If we take it that most saw blades that we come across are cast steel, then all other additional descriptions are of different varieties/qualities of cast steel. Except possibly for German steel which BSSM states was a processed cementation steel.

    But you have to be wary with descriptions on saws as to the steel quality/type. As competition increased, descriptions used could be pure marketing ploys and have little meaning in reality, such as "Silver Steel" found on some saws. BSSM also quotes "Extra Best" and "Improved" relating to supposed steel qualities

    For a very concise summary, you should read Simon's book, pages 7 to 9 ( when you get it) but bear in mind that this summary does not even begin to scratch the surface of the subject.

    Fred
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  14. rob1713

    rob1713 Member

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    Hi Mikey
    Your making a nice job of this, I look forward to see the finished saw.
    Regards
    Rob
     
  15. mikey

    mikey Member

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    Thankyou very much,
    I will keeep updating this thread as the restoration progresses !!!
     
  16. mikey

    mikey Member

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    Goodmorning guys !!!
    Here is a new chapter of this story : " The split nut repairing "

    When I tried to put split nuts back I had a problem with one of them,
    thread was completely damaged, no way to tighten the screw . . .
    I spent long days thinking and rethinking an easy way for fixing it up,
    this is what I came up with !!!

    I took the old nut and cut off the damaged thread, than I drilled a small hole in the remaining part.
    Than I took a brass screw and filed one end, and made it the right size for a snug fit in the hole like a male plug.
    (I hope pictures help more than my poor english)
     

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  17. mikey

    mikey Member

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    Next step was brazing back this new thread ...
    I bought a brazing paste and a torch and gave it a try ...
    IT WORKED !!!

    In the first picture you can see the brass screw inserted in the nut hole filled with the brazing paste.
    Next come all the set up, a few tiles, torch, brazing paste ...
     

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  18. mikey

    mikey Member

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    While the new nut was cooling down i threaded the split head and than gave it a try ... well done mikey !!!
     
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  19. mikey

    mikey Member

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    This split nut repairing was quite an achievement for me,
    because although I knew I could buy brand new split nuts,
    this would not be a solution if I had a damaged medallion .
    I hope this can help other people dealing with vintage saws !!!
     
  20. Underthedirt

    Underthedirt Most Valued Member

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    That's a nice fix on the split nut shank Mikey, I'm impressed, well done...:)

    Regards

    Mari