Timeline Discussion Additions and Corrections

Hi Ray,

The Limited Liabilities Act appeared in 1855 (I think, going from memory). Now I know that many companies did not go "limited" until the late 1800's/early 1900's but it is a cut off point.

Would it also be possible to do "advisory" timelines which are useful but have to be taken cautiously, such as the introduction of larger diameter saw screws, (poss. even larger diameter medallions if that is a valid notion)) the introduction of 3 fixings on quality products ( secondary ones are a problem here), the phasing out of London Pattern cheeks as opposed to flat handles, the usage of the term London/London Spring as a quality mark as opposed to a location and a timeline for the usage of German Steel and its quality implications.

I know that some of these are not easy to sort out, but if they are included with sufficient caveats, then they may be useful pointers as opposed to the relative "absolutes" already provided. A contradiction in terms I know.

Hope this helps and does not provide too much work or grief.

Fred.

 

Well done Ray. I think this is a superb start. I thought I knew quite a lot, but there are terms here I was not aware of, names of patents etc,

Would it possible to produce a list of terminology with a photo to explain the feature? Paricularly or new members and visitors.
As an additonal thought, for example medallions, I have not yet got very far into these, but from the styles there is obviously a progression over time, so initially if there was a photo of an early medallion then a bit later one then a late one. Anyone could then look at their saw and say it has an early medallion so they can judge the approximate date.

I know from the discussions that handle shape evolved, but I am not clear what the progress was and over what time scale.

Just rambling as thoughts come to me, so use any thing which makes sense and ignore most of it!!!!

The book (HMSOB is it?) distinguishes 2 screws as earlier than 3 and later 4 and 5. Of course quality come into play too. Is there a first date known for 3 and 4 and 5 screws?

Again well done and I hope this progresses a long way, it ought to.

Graham

 

Is there an earliest date known for 3,4 and 5 screws?
I do not think a latest date can be applied as lower grade saws have often had two screws.

I did not think to click to find links, sorry

Graham

 

Hey Ray et al
I can only add a well done to you on this time line graph.
My 2 cents might be the difficulty in doing a regional time line as you pointed out Ray. I would think saws were being made in many locations and as Simon points out not many in places we thought a lot were made like Scotland. It was an assembly area except for two true saw makers. Are the criteria for this line based on significant changes in style or one particular companies significance in the numbers of saws they made and how it impacted a region. Would the time line then open up to London, Norwich, Leeds and North American manufactures? I think the line might be unwieldy in this area.
Great stuff though.
Joe S

 

Timeline

I salute the efforts of Ray and the others to contribute to this thread - THE difficult one!
My own research is so Sheffield based that I sometimes fear I am overly biased.
The big problems are:
1. No saw makers' business documents are known from any place other than Sheffield (and there are precious few there), although the online Tyzack family history (good, but many inaccuracies) shows that the Tyzacks of London did make their own saws, as did a few other London makers like JVHill, Fitchew, Copley and Fletcher.
2. Catalogues are a big help, but as we know, dealers used engravings from others' catalogues, overprinting them with their own name. After about 1880 Disston made big inroads into the British retail saw market, and some catalogues, eg William Marples, listed Disston saws, not always making clear that they were.
3. Styles changed gradually, and in different places at different times and different rates; I find this point the hardest to accommodate to clear time lines.
4. Dating is sometimes easier if there is a retailer's name as well as the maker's, as the retailer often, but by no means always, had a shorter period of activity than the maker. But (and every statement about saw dating seems to attract a but) - a maker could be bought up and his name continued on a secondary line, as his sales in a particular geographical area could have held up well, even though the overall business had failed.
5. Sheffield was in the 19th century called "One great workshop", so that even though firms were named and situated in different parts of the town, there was enormous overlap, factoring and outworking. Smaller makers could fill up orders for the big guys who couldn't meet a deadline - and vice versa. Saw handle makers were distinct businesses, as were saw screw makers, mark makers, etching transfer printers, steel makers, grinders, tilters and rollers, and each of these could again be making for many different firms over the years, and putting on their own distinctive look. The town was constantly alive with hundreds of hand carts taking part made goods from one shop to another, usually without any written documentation (in the early days many craftsmen couldn't read or write). Some idea of what it was like can be found in Ashley Iles' "Memories of a Sheffield Tool Maker" - he started in about 1950.

So (and I hate to sound dampening, or know-all - please excuse me if I feel a bit defeated by this task!) I personally am still searching for good ways to construct these time lines. I'll look forward to reading others' efforts, and I'm sure I'll learn a lot from them
Best wishes Simon

 

Hi Ray,

is it blasphemy to add details like plastic handles, hardened teeth but also

- slotted spines (Independent saw)
- ornanmented scrolled spines (Vlad Spehar)
- medaillons on open handled saws (Wenzloff & Sons?)
- Corian as handle material?

When did the use of expensive exotic woods a handle woods start? Lie-Nielsen with Cocobolo? Wenzloff & Sons? henever i get old saws they are made from beech or apple.

So many saws so little time.

Cheers
Pedder

 

Timeline discussion

Just a line or two to add to Pedder:
The 19th cent catalogues all list a fair number of exotic timbers, such as rosewood, box, zebrawood, mahogany (never seen oak listed) as optional at extra cost. I think that like so many things in the catalogues (for instance supplying standard handsaws up to 44inches long - for 8foot giants??) they were listed just to look good and to pad out the information.
(But where on earth did Henry Disston et al find all those millions of apple trees?)

 

Timeline discussion

PS and also ebony and satinwood

 

timeline discussion

thanks a lot, Ray. That takes care of the first million or so....But Atkins, Simonds etc etc??


Simon

 

With the shape of any saw handle there is going to be short grain. Close grained timber like beech will cope. Apple, ebony, box etc are even better.
Oak and ash are too wide grained to be of use in this application as they would split at the short grain very quickly, hence they would not be used.
Most tropical hardwoods grown in a spiral rather than straight as temperate hardwoods do. This means there is usually a twist in the grain, this will help reduce the short grain effect, but most of them were probably just for popular appeal.

Graham

 

Birmingham makers

I have always been concerned that the timeline and some other published information suggests that saw making ceased in Birmingham about 1850 and was certainly aware that Atkins continued for some time longer. I had a chance to make a brief visit to the Birmingham city Library and do a quick analysis of Saw makers listed in their very good run of directories.
Sadly I did not think to note the makers listed as I did not really have time.

The results taken from a range of dates to cover the period up to World war 1 is as follows.
1865 6 sawmakers
1869 6
1895 7
1905 4
1910 2 Including Atkin & son
I agree small numbers compared with Sheffield, but still a continuation beyond the generally stated date.
Details of Atkin, dates, locations etc. are dealt with in British planes by Rees. However the 1852 directory puts Atkin at 116/117 Barford St as opposed to just 96/97 Barford St.
Additonal mention of other Atkin sawmakers from 1855, when Atkin & sons had apparently just moved to the Rea st Works.
Edward Atkin Sawmaker Sherbourne St.
Geo. Atkin sawmaker Moseley st.
Both these streets are little more than a stones throw from Rea St. and would seem likely to be relations to the original Aaron. I will have to do some family history research into the family.
The reason I was looking at Atkins is that the site of the factory is in the middle of back to back housing, so I was thinking the housing was old stock from the 1700's in poor condition so knocked down for the factory. Other houses in the area were in fact new in 1840. The National trust has preserved the last of the back to back houses in a nearby street. The usual thing in Birmingham was for a man to start a business from his back room, then take over the back to back house next door and if the factory expanded take over the whole of the courtyard. This was clearly not the case for Atkins, it must have been a purpose built factory, but I am still trying to work out why they started at Rea st, in 1855 when the rest of the area seems to have been developed a few years before then.

Part of my reason for including the detail is that there has been a reasonable amount of discussion of Atkin saws. Any stamped just Atkin could refer to one of the two above mentioned.

I have family history connections to a few streets around this area of Birmingham, so sorry if this is too much irrelevant detail, but it does suggest how much information on unknown sawmakers is still to be found from reference to first and second hand sources such as directories which are not available on the internet.
Regards

Graham

 

Timeline discussion

I'd like to post a thought which has occurred to me and would like to hear others' views:
Has any Birmingham saw maker actually marked his saw as made in Birmingham?

And that leads on to Atkin: I have the following for him:

"ATKIN(S), Aaron & Son(s) Ltd BIRMINGHAM
25 (35) Barford Street 1829-1839
96 (&97) Barford Street 1842-1849
116 (& 115 & 117) Barford Street 1850-1855
Also 58 Ludgate Hill 1850-1855
Sheffield Works, 12 Rea Street South 1856-1931
98 (110) Bradford Street 1932-1982
After 1982 the firm used several addresses, and were denoted as “saw sharpenersâ€￾; they ceased trading in the 1990’s. In many early directories, the name was spelled Atkins, but no saws have yet been recorded with this spelling.
Atkin (as his name suggests - there were, and still are, lots of them in the locality) came to Birmingham, like William Betts, from Sheffield. From the start he made products other than saws, and like many other Birmingham tool makers his list was comprehensive; it is likely that they made their own saws for an unknown part of the firm’s existence, but none has been recorded with a date much after 1910, and it may be that from then on production was concentrated on planes. Took over Betts, using his Ludgate Hill premises for a time, before they passed to Charles Smith, and used this name for second quality products (the only known case of a non-Sheffield saw maker to adopt this practice). A considerable number of their saws were marked “Londonâ€￾, but as with Sheffield makers who used similar markings there is no evidence that the word implied manufacture there".

I should add that a descendant of Atkin, (the late) Robert Vale, has just had quite a long article on the firm published in the newsletter of the Tools and Trades History Society.

Happy New Year to one and all!