Tillotson Rip Saw

Hello everyone, this is my first post. This is a Tillotson rip saw I picked up at a yard sale. I posted this saw on the Sawmillcreek site, and it was recommended that I ask you to take a look.

The pictures can probably tell you almost everything about the saw, but here is the overview:
- 4 brass split nuts, one which is medallion sized and blank except for an L stamped into the center (upside down in picture)

- The handle appears to be English beech and lamb's tongue style, in very good shape considering the possible age of it.

- The saw plate is 28" long with rip teeth (about 4 tpi) and the toe end of the plate has a cracked spot. The shape of the nib seems odd to me.

- The etch area of the plate has "Tillotson" heavily stamped in an arch in block letters, with "Sheffield Cast Steel" lightly stamped in cursive letters below it. "Cast Steel" is a little bit of a guess, as only the first and last letters are noticeable. What are very hard to see are the lightly stamped cross-topped crowns located on either side of the Tillotson arch, about even with the crest of the arch. It is possible to see the crown on the right side in the picture, but you really have to look for it.



I would like to get an idea as to the date of manufacture for this saw, and learn what the crown stampings might indicate. Any additional information would be intriguing and appreciated.

Thanks!

 

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

HSMOB has Thomas Tillotson as a merchant from 1834 to 1856.

British Saws and Saw Makers (BSSM), has the firm listed from the late 1700's but never as saw makers. They were listed as table knife cutlers, scissor makers and merchants. They had a New York office by the 1840's and ceased to exist by 1861.

None of the marks in BSSM exactly match yours. On the three handsaws shown "Tillotson" has "Thos." in front of it. (One is indistinct). There is "Tillotson" only stamped onto backsaws, but most saws shown have added wording associated with the name.

If you have crowns that are barely visible, then you may have had other wording which has worn or been ground away. But your "Tillotson", whilst slightly asymmetrically stamped, looks like it stands alone. Crowns on their own don't necessarily mean much in terms of date as they can appear both earlier and later than your saw may be. They were probably a marketing tool to imply quality, whether rightly or wrongly used.

One of the things that I like about your saw is the blank label screw (medallion). I am presuming that these saws could have a British Warranted Superior medallion. BSSM has an American Eagle W/S medallion portrayed. Whether the blank one means anything or not, I will leave others to comment - I do not know.

I am also a little lost as to date. Most of the marks in BSSM are estimated around the 1860's (+/- 10 years) and so I am assuming that yours will be in this timeframe. But I am wondering whether your stand alone "Tillotson" may throw a spanner in the timeline?

Does anyone else have any ideas.

Fred

 

Fred, Thanks for your remarks! I am fairly new to doing anything with a hand saw except using it. I found this hanging out of an old wooden crate in a shed, while looking for user saws I could clean up. It's the first British saw I've ever held. The more I learn, the more intriguing it is, but I don't know how everyone here keeps all the information straight. So much to learn! I feel like a child, asking "why, why, why?"

I definitely plan to purchase BSSM as soon as I am able, and I appreciate your effort on my behalf. In addition to your information, someone noted, in a response on the Sawmill Creek forum, that there was some mention of a Jonathan Beardshaw who may have made saws for Tillotson?

You got my attention with regard to the "Tillotson" stamp. I also noticed, from the few examples I found while searching the Internet, that other saws have a "T" or "THOS" stamped in front of it. I too, pondered the implications of it. It's unfortunate that the "etch" area is so faint. It is very hard to see the right crown in the photo, but saving, then zooming in on the picture helps. I didn't notice it the first few times I handled the saw, until it happened to be under the right light. I could not get the left crown to show up at all with my camera. I have to wonder if there is an example out there somewhere, with a more intact marking, that matches this one.

I hadn't thought much of the blank label screw, other than questioning the "L" stamped into it. An interesting observation. My guess is that neither the handle shape, nor screw arrangement indicate anything helpful? One of the things that amazes me, after the rough care taken of this saw, is how straight it still is. I would never dare to use it, however.

Bill

 

Hi Bill

Handles can tell you things about saws, but you have to be careful and not make mistakes like the ones I made about Kiwi's "Straw" saw.

http://backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/straw-london.649/

If you look at my comments in the postscript you will see that I thought that a stylistically later handle could be an earlier one as they both have similar features.

Your handle has 4 screws which generally denote a "later" saw and certainly fit into the timeframe that yours may be. Also, the return curve (indent) from the nose to the body of the handle on your saw is is quite sharp and goes back into the handle,not an enormous way but sufficiently to, again, put a date to it in the region that your saw is. I have always thought that the shallower the curve, then generally speaking, the earlier the saw. (Although I do have an exception to the rule on this in the form of a 1917 Taylor Brothers saw).

Please do buy BSSM, it can explain this and many other things a lot better than I can.

Fred

It also has the Beardshaw refernce as a factor for Tillotson's saws.

 

Thank you Fred, I truly appreciate your informative responses.

Bill

 

Hi all,

Here is an example of a saw with T. Tillotson stamp. It is later saw than yours Bill, but still very interesting example.

[

In the middle of the stamp there is a harp used by Tillotson on some of the saws.

 

Here is another example of a saw with Ths. Tillotson stamp.



Several interesting features here: the escutcheon is interesting of course. But more interesting to me are the nuts on the back side of the handle. I don't believe I have seen this type before this saw.

 

As to dating these saws - I am not sure, but have some observations. Bill, your saw would be the earliest, my first saw would be the second, and the last saw would be the third. There are saws, like yours Bill, that are stamped with the Tillotson only. In your saw the stamp is just that - TILLOTSON only. The BSSM is not helping here. I am also a bit confused as to the dates in BSSM - Simon shows saws that he dates 1880 and 1870. This is a bit a surprise since the business was sold by the end of 1860. There is no information that tools were produced after this date by some other party. Simon, we need some help here, please. Also, the saw that Simon dates 1870s has a trade mark that I would assume was used rater earlier than later. Here is a medallion with the same trade mark and a stamp from a chisel.



The crown, an X, and a heart - not too bad! BTW, this mark is not listed in any readily available directory of trade marks and has not been seen before by anybody I know - I checked that!

I am also looking for any material on Tillotsons, regardless the tool. They were involved into sales and a lot of the business was done in US.

Comment, ideas?

 

Hi Wiktor,

I know that this is not a chisel website, but the marks are so fascinating. The stamped mark above the heart looks an awful lot like a Groves "candlestick" and if you look in BSSM on page 293 you will see an almost identical candlestick on a backsaw with an ascribed date of 1910 and a similar one on a backsaw of 1910; and on page 294 a handsaw with a similar mark of 1890. For similarity I am going by the split curved sides of the candlestick as opposed to only one curve.

Things get even more interesting but no less elusive if you look at the Trade Index to Advertisers in Whites directory of 1879. There on page 9 you will see a trade-mark for Laycock Brothers (also mentioned by Simon on p. 292 and 375 of his book) of a candlestick with a heart underneath it, albeit an upside down one.

You are right that there is no information that Tillotson marked tools were sold after 1860 - ish but it is not impossible that the name was sold on or transferred. I have looked in the London Gazette for Tillotson between 1855 and 1863 and whilst there are Tillotsons mentioned in it, there is nothing about the transference of the name via bankrupcy or a will. Perhaps someone else can repeat my search as my computer is awfully slow and so I tend to pick and choose which ones I look at in detail.

Not a lot of definite help, but perhaps something to chew on.

Fred

 

Fred,
I included the chisel to support the image on the medallion and compare these two images to have a better view on the trade mark. The top portion of the trade mark is a crown and not a candlestick. It is simply not a very good and a bit distorted crown. I already did my homework and went thru all directories and trade marks listings available. I also consulted with people that I trust to give me an honest answer. This is a trade mark that nobody I know have seen before.

Now, as to dating some of the saws - the Tillotson business was abandoned and the Columbia Place and all tools were auctioned in November 1860. There are no records that tell us of any name or trade mark transfer that I know of. I am working no Tillotson for long enough time to stop chewing... I am simply reaching out to see if there is anything out there that I am not familiar with.

In any case, thanks for looking around - I appreciate your contribution.

 

Hello Wiktor,

Thanks for the great additional information! Very interesting split nuts (they really went all out on that saw), and I had never seen the harp stamp before. I too think that the trade mark/stamp is interesting. Given that it's my only resource at the moment, it got me to surf the Internet for a while to see what I could find (I figure that you've already found anything relative that way, but what the heck ). My hope was to somehow put some pieces of the puzzle together by comparing Tillotson tools with the three marks and those without. Some tools that have the same stamped information (like "Crystallized Steel") have the three marks, while others do not.

Here are some Tillotson saw pictures I found on eBay. A couple have slightly different markings:

This one is like mine, Tillotson, but the etch area is clearer; you can see the left and right crowns - here
(bottom of page).

This saw is ThosTillotson with two crowns - here

The next one is an 18" ThosTillotson backsaw - here - (bottom of page) like the one Matt Cianci rehabbed here:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/CiantiM/Tillotson-02/tillotson-02-01.asp

The last saw I found is a smaller, 16", T. Tillotson backsaw with a closed "London pattern"? handle - here
(bottom of page)

I also found a number of tools, some with "Patent Crystallized Cast Steel" and/or the Crown, X and Heart marks. Tillotson branded tools I found include hand and back saws, chisels, gouges, wooden braces, brace bits, Bowie knives, straight razors, screwdrivers and wooden spokeshaves. I can share the links if there is any interest in the other tools. The "distorted", stamped crown appears most often, of course, but I did see one on a Tillotson tool that was a worse shape - basically, a three petal flower in a W shape.

Davistown and Winterthur museums have Tillotson tools with the three marks. Maybe there has been some additional research there?

The following link seemed like a good, brief Tillotson family history, from Tweedale's Directory of Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers 1740 - 2013. (Wiktor, I see that you have reviewed the book on your website @ wkfinetools.com. I hope strazors.com had permission for the excerpt.) If eBay is any indication, straight razors seem to be the most common Tillotson product found.
http://strazors.com/uploads/images/articles/Tillotson.pdf

This link has a list of Tillotson directory listings, with the possibility of other knowledgeable sources:
http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=130279&submit_thread=1

Wiktor, thanks again. No doubt you have put considerable time and effort into your research, and I appreciate the knowledge you have shared. I do have one question... Is it possible to provide a link for Tillotson on your "UK Tools and Makers" page? I don't see them listed, and am hoping you might share that knowledge with us as well.

Bill

 

Bill,
Thanks for your post. Here are my comments:
1. The saws you found on eBay are on their way to me as we speak, except the last one.
2. I would be interested to see picture you have found on the Net. You can send them in the email to me at info@wkFineTools.com. I am especially interested in a good image of harp - their trade mark used on saw. I am also interested in a good image of "the crown, an X, and a heart" trade mark. No luck so far...
3. Somehow I can't find images of tools on Davistown - if you have links, please send.
4. Winterthur has one chisel and nothing else.
5. The PDF file on strazors.com is direct scan from Geoff's book and they never had or asked permission to publish it. This is ongoing problem and there is really no remedy for it except treat of legal action, which I had to use myself several time.
6. I am familiar with the directory listing on swingleydev.com . Don McConnell has admirable knowledge on UK tool makers and I thing the list is correct (don't remember details and the moment).
7. As to the link on my website - it is coming soon (hopefully). I am working on Historical Overview and I am half-way done. There is huge shortage of info on Tillotsons and it is taking a lot of time to extract any bits and pieces. The easy way would be to post everything that Geoff Tweedale has in his Directory, but this is no fun. I am interested in details on Tillotson and this approach requires a lot of time and perseverance. I am interested in Tillotson because there are several threads in his history that I believe are worth of exploring. First, their history is quite compact and not mingled with other businesses. They did quite a bit of business in US. Their business illustrates several concepts that I am interested to explore. One of these is "steady accumulation and transmission of craft skills" (not my authorship). In short, I think I can illustrate on their example how, in fairly short time, skills of a cutler were transmitted into next generations of tool makers, merchants, etc. This is often overlooked in writings on tools and tool makers of UK. It is especially important to understand for US community, where tool makers seem to pop up from nowhere and their roots and history omits an influence of UK tool makers and their tradition on US tool makers. Even if it is mentioned, it is done in a "passing" or completely ignored. It is often not even known and I have seen it especially clear when it comes to many US sawmakers. Anyway, I am going off the main subject - Tillotson!

Thanks for your input. Keep it coming.

 

Wiktor,

Following your item numbers:
1.) Sounds like some great hands on research... I always like that! I am a little confused though, as the first saw doesn't show sold, and the others were already sold. Made some deals somehow must be, or you were the one who purchased to begin with? I can see not finding the the last one, as the description was wrong - Tilletson, instead of Tillotson.

2.) I found a number of tools with the Crown-X-Heart mark. Believe it or not, one is an anvil! Another is a plow plane iron. I have not yet found a good image of the harp mark on a saw (or any other tool). There are also a number of pictures of other Tillotson tools. Must be a lot of images... email is taking a while to upload, so be prepared for a good size file.

3.) Davistown Museum - I couldn't find images either. Just a list, where a gouge is "signed T. TILLOTSON SHEFFIELD patent
crystallized cast steel and 3 touchmarks", and a back saw where "unusual markings also include a crown touchmark and brasses." There is also a plane blade listed with "an elaborate cartouche typical of English" makers. My hope was that, with any luck, you might already have a contact there? Here's what we're looking at:

http://www.davistownmuseum.org/PDFsforInventory/WebMaritimeIII_PDF.pdf and
http://www.davistownmuseum.org/PDFsforInventory/WebMaritimeIV_PDF.pdf

4.) Winterthur Museum - I found only one chisel there as well. Note the remains of the Crown-X-Heart mark (granted it is partial, but I think it was worth it at least as a second marked chisel). Somehow, this chisel is dated 1840-1860:

http://museumcollection.winterthur....ersion=100&src=results-imagelink#.VEHcQyLF-o0

5.) Understood, and unfortunately expected... As far as NYC offices go, it looks like by 1856, Tillotson and Marshall were located at 90 Beekman St. In the 1861-1862 Wilson's Business Directory, Thomas Tillotson & Co. was at 24 Cliff St. Listed at the same address is George W. Hutton and John Moulson Jr. (quickly scanning page). What kind of interaction might these "Hardware and Cutlery Importers" have had?

6.) Also humbly expected, and reminding us that Don McConnell co-authored "Hand-Saw Makers of Britain" with Erv Schaffer.

7.) Thanks again for your work, and perspective. I think you have a very engaging line of reasoning, and I can't wait to see what becomes of it.

 

Bill,

On 5.) Keep in mind that directory preparations took a long time to complete. The 1861-1862 Directory preparation most likely started in 1860 and compilation of data took a while. With that in mind, the 24 Cliff St. was most likely a contact address for Tillotson since he was out of New York in 1860. There probably are some other explanations, but I didn't spent much time on New York yet. On images you sent - see your email.

PS. There is another explanation, indeed. The 24 Cliff St. and 90 Beekman St. was a corner on which Tillotson's office was located. Hutton and Moulson most likely were next renters and point of contact for Tillotson.

 

In response to Wiktor and others: the dating of the Tillotson saws in BSSM was done before I had the Tweedale info about the firm's history. I attach photos of the hand (16inch blade, rehandled) and the back saw I used, and I would ask if others can understand how the backsaw in particular came to be dated as post 1860 (the overall style is very generalised, as it were, and the style of the lettering is not like any other of 1860 or before that I can recall). The mark on the small hand saw is very similar to the one on the chisel – the differing order top to bottom isn't significant, I think, but I am going to consult with the Archivist of the Cutlers Company in Hallamshire to ask her opinion.
I also attach a page from the TATHS reproduction of the 1787 Sheffield trade directory, showing not only the Tillotson mark [on Table knives, their principal manufacture at that time] but also the several others that use the ornamental crown that became part of the well-known Groves mark +USE. Altogether in this directory there were about 60 makers who used this crown in one combination or another.

 

Sorry about the duplicated photo.

 

Simon, thanks for explanation on dating. My personal view on dating is that it is a very tricking business and should be approached with great caution and many disclaimers.

As to the trade mark - now I am regretting to include that chisel. It appears to me that it brought more confusion than I intended. As I said before, it was included to support the first image – the medallion. Interestingly, no one so far commented on the medallion. It is quite clear to me that the medallion trade mark shows a crown and not a “candlestick”, as Grove’s saws use. The same could be said about trade marks in the 1787 directory – almost all trademarks use the “candlestick” image and it is very well represented. In my previous post I said, not clearly delineating it, that the image on the medallion looks clearly to me as being a crown. The trade mark on the chisel indeed leaning toward and is supported by trade marks on tools I have, being a “candlestick”. Sorry for not being clear enough.

Back to a CROWN. In BSSM, Tillotson section, there is an image of a mark – fourth image, counting from left to right - that clearly, at least to me, shows a crown with a harp underneath. BTW, this is the best mark of a harp I have seen. Simon, would you be kind enough to share this image with me? I would like to use it on the website and of course I will include appropriate credit.

Now, and this applies to both versions of the trade mark – one with a crown and the one with a “candlestick” - neither one is shown in any of the directories or trade mark listings I have seen. It is possible that I missed it – there are a lot of trade marks to look at and at some point they all become a blur.

My original question was and still is – did anyone have seen this trade mark before and is it listed anywhere?

 

This gets complicated! The more I try to date saws the less definite I often feel.
The Crown and Harp TM is used on Tillotson saws, with the harp facing both left and right (see pictures, Wiktor; you are welcome to use the one facing to the right which is a saw of mine, but the one facing to the left is from a saw that was on ebay, and I did not get permission from the vendor to use it, nor did I use it in the book).
Note that the crown and harp mark reappears on Wingfield Rowbotham (later bought by Thomas Turner) saws, also illustrated in the book on p626; I don't know of the connection, but I surmise that W/R bought the mark when Tillotson went bust. I've not yet heard from the Cutlers' Company archivist about these marks – be patient!!

And on a separate note of nomenclature: I'm now sorry that I ever adopted the suggestion (from someone who knew a lot about marks) that the Groves CROWN was maybe a candlestick. In BSSM p292 I suggested(too tentatively, I now feel) that this mark should be regarded as a CROWN, and that is what I definitely now feel it is. So I am not going to use the word candlestick in future.
Other terms I would prefer not to see used (as there are clear terms used in the Sheffield saw making industry) are escutcheon (hard to spell anyway!) which is properly called a register plate.

 

Simon, thanks for the pictures.
Also, thanks for pointing to Wingfield, Rowbotham & Co. - indeed these are nice marks. As to surmising that this mark was bought from Tillotson, I am not sure about that. We don't even have an evidence that this mark was registered. Besides, even in your book there is an evidence that Tillotson used at least two different stamps on his saws plus a different version of one. First, the one with a crown and harp; second, mark with a heart, an X and a crown - in that order; third, a crown, an X, a heart - in that order. It would be interesting to hear what Cutler's Company archivist has to say - there must be some interpretation to this "mess". And there is a fourth instance of markings - the other tools like chisels, etc.; which actually have a mark that is clearly different than the one on saws - a "candlestick, an X, a heart. This "mess" of trade marks is an evidence of something and I believe it would be a benefit to all to have some interpretation of it. Although I begin to see some indicators, it would be interesting to see some more facts and hear interpretation from more educated in English tools.

As to terminology - I am bit surprised here. The CROWN is a definitely different shape than the "candlesticks", so I believe we can't say that this is one and the same. There might be commonality to them but in the end these are two different shapes.

On an "escutcheon" vs. a "register plate" - this will be a long clime, at least in US. I have been a witness and partially (unfortunately) participated in an attempt to change the term "medallion" to "label screw" and consider it to be a mistake. It was some years ago and at that time I still trusted self-appointed "experts" in tool collectors' community. Well, live and learn! Anyway, the term "label screw" was used once in one of the patents for saw screws in US and this was the basis for this attempt. However, the common name used in US is a "medallion". The attempt to force the use of a new term was a futile venture and never took roots. It is especially interesting to me because I found evidence that term "medallion" was used by later saw making firms - namely Nicholson on their packaging for saw screws. As i said in my published comments ( see it here: http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/RichBros/tools/x_medallions/lScrew-1.asp), this ended the disscussion for me.

Comment are welcome...

 

Regarding saw terminology -

I do not believe that vernacular terms/names can be eliminated from vernacular language. However, I do believe it is important that those who know better should use appropriate terms during discussion. The use of proper terminology enhances communication by ensuring that all parties are in complete understanding of the topic being discussed - more accurate/reduction of error.

I liken this idea to that of a medical doctor. Discussion between two doctors involves the use of appropriate medical terminology. At the same time, those same doctors can readily understand patients who use the vernacular. The patient will, in time, begin to understand proper medical terms. Whether or not they use those terms is not controllable by the doctor, but at least the patient has learned and is aware.

In the case of this thread, and as a newcomer, I am glad for the term "register plate" and "label screw". If they are the historically proper terms, then I recognize that I was communicating incorrectly. In addition, I have often felt strange while typing "handle", as opposed to "tote". I typed it anyway, because that seemed to be the familiar term on this forum. Should we be using the term "tote" as well?

One can see why Ray made the decision to take the time to create a Nomenclature page on this website. (Re-reading Ray's page - I just noticed that his first two paragraphs communicate this same idea.) Perhaps it is time to make some revisions to the Nomenclature page? Maybe that page should be transferred into a sticky at the top of the forum?

It might also be time to create a new thread...

Regards,
Bill