Smithson, Hobson and J Taylor and Son

Hello all,

I have put here 2 "also rans" ( it seems so much more polite than describing them as 2nd to 6th rate ) and I am not sure about the Hobson.

To start off with the worst first. The J Taylor and Son is really only the blade as the handle, I am sure, has little to do with the rest of the saw. ( And it is really only on here because it fits into the Taylor Bros. theme). The curious thing is that the handle is held on by screws only. I saw a handsaw on Ebay not long ago (I have forgotten if you bought it or not Lui) with the same fixing method, but I cannot see how it would last any real length of time.

The second is the Smithson which I have referred to in previous literary efforts and which is definitely an "also ran". I have not got the lamb with the halo on the photo, but it is there. Speaking of which the "paschal" in "recumbent paschal lamb" I am told (corrected) by my wife is pronounced with a "k" sound for the "ch" as in "rascal". I always thought that it was a softer sound such as in "passion" from which I thought it came, but my wife normally knows these things.

Now for the Hobson. It is not in HSMOB under the Taylor Bros. stable of marks. There are Hobsons in Sheffield, Manchester and Derby but unless one was taken over by Taylor Bros., then I suspect that it has little to do with them either.

The handle is 15/16ths inch thick, which is 1/16th thicker than the Smithson. It has an 8" blade and, of course a brass back with London stamped on it. I am presuming that London in this context purports to refer to quality.

The question is:- "Was this saw made when London was still a mark of quality, or is it a later saw trying to hype up its credentials against its competition". Taylor Bros. started as such in 1849, so if it was an early one, then it may just have caught the end of the "London" as quality fashion. If it is an advertising gimmik to outdo the competition, then we are back to the 1880's+ again.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Fred

 

Hi Fred,

I can't tell you anything about your saws, but I can say, with 100% certainty that I didn't get the saw with srewed on handle. It went for more money than I was prepared to pay for a saw that might fall apart under heavey use.

regards

lui

 

My uninformed guess would be that the Hobson saw is a Taylor Bros saw made on consignment as a production run with special name stamping appropriate for their various hardware store and re-seller customers, ...
...in this case for Hobson, likely a merchant based in London

[ in the same way that Frederick Willey seems to have sold saws stamped with his name, that were originally manufactured for him by Wm Tyzack Sons & Turner, and Wheatman & Smith ]

 

Hi Kiwi,

Thanks for nudging my elbow on the retailer/supplier. I should have thought of it, but I am now obsessed with single word names on saws (especially if they end in "son"), being secondary lines of larger makers. I have just this evening bought a saw on Ebay that purportedly just says MELHUISH on it and who is probably Richard Meluish, a supplier of tools also in London, so, as you say such markings do exist, and may be relatively common.

A quick trawl through the on-line directories comes up with two or three possible candidates for retailers, a George Henry Hobson who was an ironmonger in the 1852 Post Office directory of London and who is probably the most likely candidate if it is an earlier saw. There is also an Hobson Allfrey and Co. who are just listed as merchants in the same directory but who also appear in the Post Office 1841 directory as well, and finally the next best candidate, Henry Hobson who was a merchant and wholesale Cutler. You can trace him through to 1884 (he is an "and Sons by this time") as well, so if the saw is later, then he is possibly the better candidate. (Trademarks on Base Metal puts him 1868 to 1919)

There are a number of Hobsons in "Trademarks on Base Metal", but they are all Sheffield and mainly Cutlers ( but Henry Hobson and Sons is listed as Sheffield as well and so the other listings may not mean that the companies are exclusive to Sheffield).

I haven't gone beyond 1884 at the moment.

All other comments/help greatly appreciated.

Fred

 

Fred,
you might find something similar to your Melhuish saw in the Richard Melhuish catalogue, on toolerama.com ( in the "free stuff" area ) Unfortunately the scan quality doesn't show legible blade etching
http://toolemera.com/Trade Catalogs/tradecatalogs192.html

 

Hi Kiwi,

Thank-you again, this time for the pointer to the Melhuish 1925 catalogue. I have a feeling that the saw that I will get will be stamped as opposed to etched and it has only two handle fixings and they are split nuts. (By the looks of the not too brilliant photo). So it may be an earlier cheaper saw yet again. But I will put it on the site when I get it.

The catalogue is a mine of information, especially about steels for saws, and there is a London patterned handle saw with 4 fixings.

Nearly all the steels are there in one guise or another, except German Steel.

There is :- Vanadium Steel which looks like it is on their best "own brand" saw and must be relatively new to the stable of steels; Silver Spring Steel; Refined Crucible Steel for a Disston D8 and Extra Refined London Spring on a Disston D12. These are all categories for handsaws. There is no mention of the steel types for backsaws except for Silver Steel for an Atkins. (I accept that most are meaningless in any real sense before Simon points this out, but it is still a panorama of advertising/marketing gimmiks if nothing else).

The interesting thing for me is that they are still using London Spring steel as a sign of quality. Now that really is cultural inertia and directly contradicts my supposition about the Hobson that, if London is a quality mark, then it must be quite early.

I have gone away from the Hobson but never mind.

Fred

 

Smithson etc

There are a lot of things to say here (not sure if I will get them straight)
1. I've seen several of the Hobson/Taylor lamb and flag saws identical to Fred's. I've concluded (correctly, I hope) that they are by Taylor for the large factoring Sheffield firm of Henry Hobson, as below (entries from my book)

HOBSON, Henry LONDON
67, 68 & 69 Houndsditch 1867-1915>
Wholesale cutlery, electroplate, comb and brush manufacturers, and general and export merchants. Hobson was listed in Sheffield directories for more years than in London, and by 1860 he was giving his home address as simply “Londonâ€￾. The Sheffield directories usually listed him as a “Cutlery dealer (J Pearce & Co)â€￾, whose address was Queen street; his father in law was called John Pearce, a razor maker and cutler dealer whose manager he became. Hobsons eventually ceased business in about 1930 (TKB).
Also 60 Queen Street SHEFFIELD
The second mark, which includes the lamb and flag trade mark of Taylor Brothers, confirms that Hobsons were factors, although it is also possible that this was a saw made by Taylors for another Sheffield Hobson, or even (like their Melvin saws) a second quality line of their own.
[single word Hobson] [identical mark to Fred's]

B c1900 16mm B c1900 45mm
Trade and second quality marks: Express.

HOBSON, John ( or George) SHEFFIELD
39 Broomhall Street 1841
Saw, and table and spring knife manufacturer. The two directories for this year were published by different firms, with differences between them.

HOBSON, John B. SHEFFIELD
67 Snig Hill 1854
Cutler and saw maker.

HOBSON, Thomas DERBY
Bold Lane 1870-1893
Saw and edge tool maker.

HOBSON, William SHEFFIELD
(37) Sheldon Row 1852-1862
HOBSON, John
37 Sheldon Row 1883
1862: saw manufacturer; 1883: repairer only.

HOBSON & Co SHEFFIELD
Arundel Works, and 57 Trippet Lane 1895-1898

2. Smithson is definitely a Taylor Bros second quality, and my guess (yet another...) is that they took over Smith and Son, as below:
SMITH, John & Son
Coalpit Lane 1814-1823
Glossop Road 1825-1828
56 (57) West Street 1837
1821: saw, file and edge tool manufacturers.
SMITH, John & Co
188 West Street 1841
78 Russell Street 1846
68 Russell Street 1848
1841: saw, steel etc manufacturer. May not be the same as the preceding.
The difficulty here is to know which John Smith was which; it may well be that the 1825 entry is perhaps simply a quirk of the directory’s publisher, who omitted the “& Sonâ€￾ and assumed a different person. As a hypothesis, the name Smithson, chosen by Taylor Brothers for one of their many second quality lines, may have been the result of their taking over John Smith & Sons (Taylors started in 1837, and Smithson has not been recorded as a surname in the Sheffield metal trades).

3. Hermitage; Ray - I think you've come across what is for me a first - a "Hermitage" saw, which I think (there's that guess again) is a Robert Marples tool, as below:
MARPLES, Robert SHEFFIELD
65 Hermitage Street 1837-1841>
130 Carver Street and Birmingham 1845
Hermitage Works, 65 Hermitage Street
Manufacturer of joiners’ tools, edge tools, skates, brace and bits etc. A large range of saws was listed in their catalogue of 1904, but none of them have been recorded, and the list of their manufactures in their advertisements does not included saws. The dates are simply those of saw makers listings.
Trade and second quality marks: Hermit+picture; H.D.Marples; Hermitage Tool Co; Henry Dixon; Robert Henry; Henry Greaves.

Could you maybe post a picture of it? Thanks a lot Simon

 

Smithson, Hobson

Thanks a lot, Ray. It really does seem to be in part a Robert Marples saw, with a good deal of what might be called attention subsequently, including mucked-about screws. I've seen a lot of saws with this kind of distinctly mixed parentage.

Best Simon