sheffield compass saw

This is a compass saw that has been in my tool kit for several years. Bought from a car boot sale for a few penny's. It was very rusty and needed quite a good deal of maintenance, but after cleaning, topping, sharpening and setting it has made an excellent saw when used for its original purpose. The makers name is indistinct even after enlarging the photo to its extremes, but one thing is clear it was made in Sheffield. The open type handle is thicker than the standard hand saw handle. Is it identifiable and can a manufacturing date be ascertained.
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Hi again,

I am assuming that the first letter is an "M" and if it is, then it is probably a "MOWBRAY" saw which is a brand name of Taylor Brothers.

Even though the blade is stamped, if the nuts are original (and I think that it is a big "if" in this case), then they put it post WW1. If you take the nuts off, look to see if there are holes beneath the washers where split nut heads were sunken into the handle. Split nuts would indicate an earlier date, but how much earlier I do not really know. Compass saws are not my "thing" and so the handle style is not much use to me. Hopefully someone else may have some ideas.

HSMOB has Taylor Brothers from 1849 to 1915 and from 1856 to 1915 at Mowbray Street.

I have posted an image of the "Mowbray" etch, if you are interested.

Fred

 

Thanks to both of you I agree that MOWBRAY seem the most likely interpretation. As suggested I have removed the nuts from the saw handle but there is no counter bores in the handle to suggest the use of split nuts. However, I do agree the existing nuts do not seem to fit with the saw, my own belief is the nuts were probably brass domed nuts. The existing nuts are too long to tighten against the saw handle without the use of the washers, what are your opinions?
regards

 

Looking at the holes in the handle, it has had saw nuts fitting directly into the handle that have (what are described in 'Decorated Saw Nuts' - post 6 as) "integral projections" beneath the head. In my terms - sticky-out lugs.

Looking at the washers on this saw, they would act as spacers and not let the lugs catch fully into the wood, if at all.

I don't know whether it is the photo, my eyes or if they are really like it, but it looks like you have two screw cups in the images provided. (Left hand photo - bottom left and right hand photo - top right). If that is the case, then they must be wrong. I think that they are wrong in any case and that you are right in your assumption of brass (or possibly plated steel??) domed nuts.

I have been thinking about the handle style. I have bought some compass/keyhole saws as part of job lots of saws, and looking at them, all the handles are of the conventional "open tote with horns" style. This handle style (as far as my saws go) always has split nuts. If yours did have domed nuts, then that would put it just pre, or post WW1.

(Just to clarify the dates for Taylor at this point. HSMOB is probably not accurate with a final date of 1915, as I have a 1917 Taylor saw (dated) and my Mowbray saw in the photo looks a lot later than that to me. Kiwi has them in Kelly's 1925 {Topic:- "Taylor Brothers - The Last London Flat" - post 2}, but I have an idea that they may be later still. Any definitive information on this anyone?)

I do have a handle like yours somewhere but I cannot lay my hands on either the saw or the photo. The handle does not fit the saw, but the important point is that the handle is held on by proper screws, i.e. a coarse screw thread with a domed brass slotted head and which does not emerge from the rear of the handle. It must have been a very poor and temporary fixing method, susceptible to replacement very quickly. It is an unlikely candidate for your saw, but possible. Or possibly not. I have just taken another look at your images and the holes look original to me (not re-bored) and so the domed conventional nuts looks like the favourite.

Fred

 

I don't have Taylor Bros catalogues to date your saw,
but Spear & Jackson's 1915 catalogue shows a similar handle style listed as their "Old Pattern Handle" for their nest of saws, suggesting your style may be pre 1918.
Contradicting the above, S Tyzack & Son's catalog of about 1938 shows this style of handle still being produced (and it looks like the screws have washers, although its hard to be sure)
Washers on the screws would seem good design for a Nest-of-Saws application where loosening and tightening the screws is required for blade changes, and the projections on the screw shanks (to lock them into the square hole in the handle) show your screws to be genuine saw screws, so they might be original.
Fred's circa WW1 dating looks good, or maybe I'd guess WW1-WW2 era
Welcome to the world of contradictory evidence and WAG, (wild ass guessing), in old saw dating & identification !

 

Re the compass saw. We really need to know if the blades on this particular saw are interchangeable, or whether the blade is fixed. If interchangeable, then the washers may be original to accommodate tightening and loosening on a regular basis.

I still think that with the nuts shown, the washers would take up so much of the depth of the lugs on the nuts, that they would not bite into the handle to the extent that is shown. And this, therefore would mitigate against these particular nuts being the ones that made the indents in the holes.

This does not mean of course that the shank or the lugs that made the square indents in the holes in the first place, were original to the saw!! Unless someone has a picture of this particular saw, it it something that may never be known.

Whilst I have not found the Mowbray with the etch that I put on this topic, or a photo of the full saw, I do remember that the handle is covered in black paint like this one is (or was). I always thought that my Mowbray was quite late, possibly 1920's - or 30's if Taylors lasted that long. So I think you may be somewhere near right Kiwi in saying inter-war.

Fred

I had never heard the term "wild ass guessing" before, but it is very appropriate because (you are right Kiwi) that is what a lot of discussion about old saws is. And which, of course is the fun of it all.

 

There is plenty of interesting info on this thread already, but permit a fully paid up member of the WAG club to add that Taylor Bros finally went out of this world in the 1970s.
Saw nests had these distinctively shaped handles, and the earlier screws on this saw were replaced by much more easily changed ones, rather like old-fashioned bicycle wheels were once fastened with simple nuts until some clever fellow invented the quick release lever (an off-duty saw maker??).
I think rilanda's saw could be around 1920, even though that is after the quick release lever was introduced ( by Spear & Jackson, around 1900, I think). Mowbray was one of the 15 - at least - second or n-th quality lines that Taylors produced, so they probably didn't want to use the more expensive screws and nuts on it.