Saw identification by its handle?

Does anyone know to what extent a saw can be identified by its handle. Ray mentioned in my \"Unidentified Saws\" topic that it may be possible to identify one of the saws by its handle, but can this be extended to saws generally, or only in limited circumstances.
I suppose that it depends upon how sawmakers sourced their handles.

Did the larger sawmakers make their own handles to their own design?
Did they have them made specifically for their company by a contractor/ subcontractor to their own design or did they buy generic handles?
Did the smaller sawmakers buy generic handles from \"handle makers\" and therefore have access to the same handles as other companies?

I know that there are many obvious identification features on handles which would enable you to say that \"this handle looks like that one\" but can you extrapolate from that to say \"if this handle is on (for example) a specific Tyzack and I have a saw with a handle like it but no other identification feature, then that the other saw is a) that specific Tyzack or b) a Tyzack of some sort.\"

It really depends upon how Tyzack sourced their handles, how they used them on specific saws, and whether any other maker had access to \"their\" handles.

It is a fascinating and, I imagine, an enormous topic. I have some ideas on saw identification by its handle, but before I make a fool of myself publicly by putting them into print, I would like to see what the answers (if any) to these questions are.

The reasons that I raise this now are twofold. The first I hope will be evident when I put my next two saws on the site as a separate topic, and the second is that the possible answer to the (remaining) unidentified saw in my previous topic may have been solved.It has literally, been staring me in the face for the last month or so. But this is for later as well.

Thanks for bearing with me .
Fred.

 

Hey Fred.
You are right, this is an enormous topic and I don\'t think I have a whole lot of answers, just anecdotal evidence and observations from a \"couple \"of saws I have.
I don\'t think I have seen any evidence to say that the big firms farmed out their handles but the saws that I have that are from the big firms such as S&J, Taylor, Groves, and some of the smaller firms such as Hill, or Brittain have handles that are really consistent with each example. All of them are stylistically similar for the age and time period but each are different in some way whether it be in a lambs tongue, hook or chamfer.I think there would be a lot more similarity examples with the tool companies who had to have maybe one of the large firms make their brand of saw since they weren\'t making the saws but advertised in the catalogs. Is there any evidence that Marples, Howarth,or Mathieson actually made their own saws? I am sure they had a very big say in the standard and the similarity to a catalog picture but I don\'t know if they were anything more than distributors but I would love to hear if there is some real evidence that they actually produced saws. If they were distributors we might find similarities and even evidence that someone else was making the saws for them.
Your example Fred of the \"unnamed\" saw seems to me to be typical of a later post 1900 generic handle that might have been of the lesser priced and sold to the growing numbers of \"handymen\" through the hardware store in maybe a tool cabinet package like Stanley might have sold. Quickly made, stylistically forgettable but fills a need.

I don\'t think I really answered any of the questions and probably added some more. Can\'t wait to see some of your ideas in print Fred.
cheers
Joe

 

Joe,

Thanks for your reply. This is a truncated duplicate of a reply that I wrote to you but which got lost in the ether when I pressed the submit button. I hate computers.

I don\'t know whether there is any documentary evidence out there to answer any of my questions, where to look if it is or whether it would be of any use to me if I found it.

I think that what I really want to do is to provide a database of known and dated (as far as possible) saw handles that can be accessed in order to compare an unknown handle against an image of a known saw handle, with the possibility of identifying the saw if the handles match. Hence all the questions, as this exercise would be futile if the same handles were fitted to different makes of saw.

Anyway I will still put forward my proposals to see what reactions they get. Please see the images \"saw handle comparison\" in my gallery which are meant to illustrate what I am about to try to say.

There are, as I see it two major problems. 1) To make the submission of images to the database easy enough that people will actually put them on in sufficient quantities to be useful and 2) To make the image on the database comparable with a saw handle held by a viewer.

The simple answer is to put a saw handle onto a sheet of graph paper (an idea taken from this site) and then to photograph it in such a manner that the various features of the handle can be validly and reliably quantified in order to campare them against a handle held by said viewer.

This could be done in the following manner. Draw a datum line on the paper and ACCURATELY lay the top of the chamfer along it.(See the \"datum line\" image). This would then form a horizontal axis as per a graph. Then draw a vertical line on the paper (the vertical axis) and place the point of the chamfer at the blade side on this vertical axis. Number each square along each axis and this will allow you to assign co-ordinates to whichever features on the handle that you choose. On my two handles, I have chosen the beak, the horns, the clip on the lower ogee and the v joint as the main features to which I have assigned co-ordinates.

The co-ordinates would not necessarily have to be assigned by the provider of the image, as this may deter people from submitting them. All that must be done is to put the handle on the paper in such a manner that it lays accurately along one of the horizontal graph lines. Provided that photograph is taken somewhere near properly, the viewer can assign his own values to the features that he chooses.

In order to put some consistency into the photographic process I formed a rectangle running from the horizontal axis, down to the furthest extremity of the horns and from there returned it to the vertical axis. I then found the centre of the rectangle (marked by coloured circles for the two different saws) and took my photograph from vertically above the respective centre of each. Again this may be a bit of a pain for people submitting the photo\'s and I suspect that if the centre of the handle is estimated and a photo taken vertically from above that point, then this may suffice. It depends what degree of error is put in by the slightly different camera angles.

What is a must, however is that the photograph taken contains no shadows as these will interfere with the accurate determination of the shape of the handle and hence its co-ordinates.

In order to form some sort of searchable index, some co-ordinates for each handle would have to be determined and input so that a person searching it would not have to scroll through hoardes of images randomly. (The search categories are something that really need thinking about).

This is a very,very brief description of some of my thoughts, as I do not want to waste people\'s time reading it if the following questions provide negative responses.

These questions are:-
1) IS IT WORTH THE EFFORT OF DOING THIS? IF IT IS
2) WILL IT WORK?
3) WILL IT WORK WITH MODIFICATIONS?

On reading it in print I think that it may well be not worth the effort, but I would appreciate some thoughts on the matter.

Fred.

Ps I think that the images in my gallery indicate how handles that look similar in a photograph can be seen as significantly different when quantified.

 

Ray,

I think that you have just sounded the death-knell for the handle identification idea, not that I am particularly sad about it, as, when I was writing my reply to Joe, I realised that technically the project was well out of my league to implement. I would not like to lumber someone else with its implementation.

If handles were made by sub-contractors, then it would be possible for handles to be supplied to companies other than those they were intended for, even if it was the case of a job lot of end of line handles being sold this way. Anyway it puts enough doubt into the matter to render it not worthwhile as a sure way of identification. Indicative possibly but not certain.

Also the scope for it was limited, mainly I think to handsaws as backsaws tend to have names/trade-marks impressed into the back. This is an area that generally does not get the wear of a blade and consequently the marks stay clearer for longer.

Certainly etchings on handsaw blades can be worn away or are subject to being erased by rust. Even impressed marks on blades can be obscured in this manner. The only sure identification feature is then the medallion which may be worn, changed or simply be a generic \"warranted superior\". It would have been nice to have a third \"identification by handle\" string to this particular bow but this, alas, looks not to be.

Could you tell me what TATHS is and is any information available online.

Fred