Hi all, This saw is an enigma. Upon initial glance, I would think it is a British saw. I've never seen an American saw handle shaped like this. Indeed, the handle appears to be European beech rather than American beech. The name stamp, though, is where the rub comes in. It reads: Proctor & Co., Boston, Cast Steel, Warranted. The words are surrounded by three stamped eagles similar to the stamping of crowns on many British saws. They are barely visible in the picture. The stamped letters are a bit smaller than usual and may be bright struck. The medallion is blank. A unique feature is the way the toe end has been shaped (see picture). I can't tell if this was a user modification or original. I've not been able to find any information on Proctor & Co. of Boston. They were likely a hardware store or merchandiser of some sort. Here is my supposition. This saw was made in England for export to America. Upon arrival, it was stamped with the retailer's name for sale here. Other ideas and comments welcome. Judging by general appearance, what is a good guess on date of manufacture of this saw? Bob
Hi Bob, I am not going to be a lot of help here, except to say that it has the overall appearance of a British saw and from the style of the handle I would put it from 1840 to 1860 - ish. But this is a complete and unevidenced WAG. What I do find interesting is that the 3 eagles seem to bear no spacial relation to the maker's stamp. They normally, (in my recollection at least), bracket wholly or partially the stamp. (See the crowns of my Martin post below this one). Also the maker's stamp is much deeper and more prominent than the eagles. The toe to me (apart from the chunk taken out of it near the toothline) is a typical British saw with a rounded toe and a nib. Something is going on here, but it eludes me what. You may be right in that it is a British manufactured blank, stamped in the US or stamped in Britain with a US retailer's/manufacturer's name. I don't see how you would get such a deep maker's stamp unless it was done before the blade was hardened. But I do wonder if there was another name stamp which has been ground/polished out sited between the eagles? Simon is a bit of a whizz on sorting out British and American letter styles and so he may be able to shed a little light on the lettering if he sees this. Fred There is, of course a Boston in England, but I can find no Proctor there with anything to do with saw making or retailing. In Lincoln, which is quite close and in the same county, there was a Proctor who was a precursor to Ruston Proctor and Co who made rather larger things than saws. But of course, it is Lincoln and not Boston.
Hi Bob & Fred, The eagles looked very familiar to me. So I went and looked at images of my Welch & Griffiths saws and found one looking just like the Proctor & Co., same eagles and same handle. I think Bob's Proctor & Co saw was a hardware company saw factored by Welch & Griffiths, probably in the early 1840's. This style is the earliest of the four styles of theirs that I've identified among my collection. They began making hand and backsaws in about 1838, although they were making mill saws and muley saws from 1830. They continued making saws until the late 1870's or early 1880's. Their handles were almost always English beech; in fact in their catalogs from the 1870's they state just that, Best English Beech. Take a look at the attached photos and let me know what you think. (I apologize for their quality. I just zoomed in on one record photo that I have on hand.) David
Fred and David, thanks for your replies. I believe David has hit the nail squarely on the head. My saw appears identical to his except for a different name. The unusual layout of the name stamp, with cast steel and warranted off to the right of the name, is the giveaway for me. The exact same handle shape is also telling. David, I see that your saw does not have the extra notch in the toe end, so this is something a previous owner of my saw apparently added for decoration. How interesting these old saws are! I wish I could find info on Proctor & Co, but that seems doubtful at this point. Thank you David, and now I must go and research Welch & Griffiths. These two saws so closely resemble British saws that one or both of these men must have crossed the Atlantic to settle in America. Bob
Well, it's amazing what one can find on the Internet. I believe I have found Proctor & Co. at last. The New England Historical and Genealogical Register Volume 49, dated October 1895, states on page 463 that John C. Proctor was a hardware merchant in Boston, presumably the owner of Proctor & Co. Following the financial crisis of 1837-38, the business was dissolved and reformed under the name Proctor & Butler with his son-in-law Peter Butler. So my saw that is stamped Proctor & Co. may have been made in Boston by Welch & Griffiths in 1838 or slightly before. This must be one of the earliest handsaws made by that company. I would think David's saw, which appears identical to mine except for a different name stamp, must have been made about the same time. And yes, Mr. Charles Griffiths was engaged in saw making in England before immigrating to America in 1830 to resume business. The nexus of saws and history is fascinating stuff. Bob
Hello both, And David's post above shows the world of difference between evidence based knowledge, and flying by the seat of your ( or in this case, my) pants. It is very satisfying, though, to have a proper answer to this. Fred Where did Griffiths make saws, Bob? Simon has only one Griffiths (John) in HSMOB and he is in Norwich, but the dates start from 1803 and go on until 1958. It is possible that one of his family could have emigrated, but it would also be nice to uncover a "new" saw making company. If you have any idea of a place where he had his business in England, I could possibly research the man and his company
Hello, Charles Griffiths and William Welch both worked in Birmingham before they settled in Boston. In 1838 they convinced their old shop-mate from Birmingham, James Bailey to come join them and run their shop in Arlington, Mass. Having a acquired a trove of their early letters, contracts, other writings and catalogs, I've been researching them for a while and have an article almost ready to publish. Ah, but finishing! Dating any of their saws accurately has been impossible until now and your saw, Bob, and the dates you have for Proctor are a terrific help in finally confirming an early date for the first style. Thanks, David
City Directories are good places to search for people/occupations; 1823 Stimpson & Frost Directory of Boston lists Proctor, John C., hardware dealer, 8 Dock square, house 4 Bowdoin Stimpson’s Boston Directory 1832 lists; Proctor (John C.) & Palmer (Julius A.), Hardware, 19 Merchants row, c. Chatham, P’s h 50 Bowdoin [also lists Welch (Wm) Griffiths (Chs) & Reeves (Chs), sawmakers ] The above directories found through http://cdm.bostonathenaeum.org/cdm/landingpage/collection/p16057coll32 Sheldon & Co's Business or Advertising Directory, 1845 ,shows; PROCTOR & BUTLER Importers of HARD WARE AND CUTLERY and Dealers in SHEET LEAD & LEAD PIPE No 98 State street Opposite Merchants Row [Welch & Griffiths advt is on the same page] https://books.google.ca/books?id=8vRDAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA38&lpg=RA1-PA38&dq="Proctor+&+Butler"+boston&source=bl&ots=3QZtgFoeVL&sig=4Oueo8lR-yc6Azm0CeGW3UnxR24&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpy5_j4LjVAhUd24MKHdwVCfsQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q="Proctor & Butler" boston&f=false It seems to me that its possible that a "Proctor & Co" saw could have been produced for any one of John Proctor's partnerships, and not necessarily to a pre-1840 partnership. Note that although John C Proctor looks a most likely suspect, there are also other Proctor partnerships active in Boston during this period, eg; 1845 Proctor & Bishop, (commercial merchants, whatever that designation encompasses) 1850 Josiah Proctor & Co (commercial merchants) 1855 Wyman Proctor & Co ( paper products), Darr Proctor & Co (West Indies produce), Proctor & Wood (commercial merchants), A Proctor & Son A study of census results might better define some of these Proctors (if you do a detailed study of Proctors, would that make you a proctologist? )
It appears David has answered Fred's question about where Griffiths made saws in England, so I'll just say thank you to both. David, I'm very much looking forward to your article about Welch & Griffiths. Bob P.S. - Kiwi's post arrived as I was typing the above. Still more useful information. Thanks.