I have been buying old saws on a reasonable regular basis for the last 18 months or so. Cannnot really say why. Started buying old planes because I needed a good jointer for violin plates (I'm an amateur maker) I suspect it might have been cheaper to have bought a Lie Nielsen straight off, but I've had a lot of fun in the meantime and accumulated more planes than seems decent. Anyway, to the saws. Nothing of great value, but when I see an old saw is a sad, neglected state I feel the overwhelming need to rescue it. I think the most I have spent is $15 for very nice 12 inch brass backed Tyzack. I bought that for my father-in-law, a long retired joiner who is in his eighties. When I gave it to him he said he couldn't use it as he found it too heavy! Anyway, I'd be very grateful for any thoughts anyone has on these: A Ibberson brass backed saw. I paid $2 for it. The handle was badly broken and I made the poor replacement on it now https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8WVWcYp10L4/T9R4IzZjqCI/AAAAAAAAEmc/thxaZEvDAtg/s1024/Ibberson%2520stamp.jpg, https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QPHknH7an9s/T9R5GjG28DI/AAAAAAAAEok/LHoRd-C16Ok/s912/P6104319.JPG G and T Gray https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dHw_rXw1jhA/T9R5OKUMIjI/AAAAAAAAEpE/83fq06krk_k/s1024/P6104315.JPG, https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-iKUn2_-Yqvo/T9R5LlYhtOI/AAAAAAAAEo8/f0VrG62Bj_c/s912/P6104316.JPG Domino https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oeTaWJiHioY/T9R5UsasWYI/AAAAAAAAEpk/SQi2IleziBQ/s1024/P6104311.JPG, https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1jNdotJU-Us/T9R5TGVtDvI/AAAAAAAAEpc/5VSmYTCvdDg/s1024/P6104312.JPG That might do for now Thanks in advance. Tim
Hi Tim, All that I am going to do I am afraid is to quote HSMOB re the first two saws - no brains at all involved. HSMOB has two Ibberson's, both presumably related. they are:- Allan Ibberson (1876 to 1909) at 2 (and 4) Lawton Street, Granby. Alfred William Ibberson (1911) at 2 and 4 (without the brackets) Lawton Street, Granby. and again Arthur William (1911) but this time at 23 Mayfield Road, Lev. (whatever/wherever "Lev" is). Your G and T Gray (George and Thomas) were in business or rather their mark was from 1849 to 1911 at initially 36 Malinda Street (Sheffield) and latterly at the Australian Works, Malinda Street (1911). They were incorporated with John Elsworth and Sons Ltd by 1911 and so whether their mark survived this or not, I don't know. I only have one of their medallions and not a saw itself. It is a bit of a long timeline for the saw. Someone else may be able to narrow it down a little further. From "Trademarks on Base Metal" "Domino" appears to be a trade mark of T R Ellin, Footprint Works, Hollis Croft, Sheffield 1892 to 1919. (I have never heard of them before this). They made cutlery and goods of precious and other metals. The handle style is about right for that period having fllat saw screws (pre WW1 generally speaking) but with a flattened fishtail which to me indicates a very late 19th/early 20th century saw. I thought that Domino had me beaten but then I remembered "Trademarks" as a source. It is a good online source of info if you don't have access to HSMOB. It is about as much as I can do. Someone else may be able to add to it. Fred
Hi Fred, That's terrific, many thanks. I'm going to have buy some of the standard reference works if this addiction is to continue! The Domino interested me as well. A handy little saw, but the one I use quite a lot is a little on just marked 545 (see: https://picasaweb.google.com/timrobinson22/Saws?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2rJ-4l9HslgE#5752355359303736530) I don't think it is particularly old at all. I have photos of some of my others at this site: https://picasaweb.google.com/timrobinson22/Saws?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2rJ-4l9HslgE# but I should get the books and do my own research - which given what I do for living seems pretty reasonable Where is the best place to buy HSMOB etc? Thanks again, Tim
Hi Tim, Thanks for the photo's. I have a particular affection for handsaws and to see the G and T Gray one with such a crisp mark is a real pleasure. Is the backsaw with the Ordnance mark and "1943" named? I am assuming that it isn't or you would have shown a photo of the mark. As for getting copies of HSMOB, I got mine off either Amazon or Abe and I think that it was a good secondhand one. I think that they are out of print, although I will stand to be corrected on that. Mine is a paperback and with postage from Canada to the UK, the price came out at around GBP 26. It makes life so much easier to have a copy, although Simon's book (when it finally comes out) should be much more comprehensive and accurate. Fred
Hi Fred, In reverse order: I just ordered a copy from VintageSaws.com, $27.95 US incl. postage to Australia. I was going seek further sage advice from the forum on that one. Here are some better photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/timrobinson22/Saws?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2rJ-4l9HslgE#5754109910782741954 https://picasaweb.google.com/timrobinson22/Saws?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2rJ-4l9HslgE#5754109973195203330 https://picasaweb.google.com/timrobinson22/Saws?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2rJ-4l9HslgE#5754110015425025730 I bought it in Sydney, the Australian Military used, the same broadarrow mark as the British. They still do according to my son who is in the Engineers. I have an Acorn plane with it as well. I have another Gray of which I am rather fond of, another backsaw. It is pretty much as found, just cleaned a bit. The handle looks as rough as guts but is surprisingly comfortable. I would reall like to know its story. The use of brass screws is wonderful. When I bought it (actually I didn't, the market vendor gave to me when I was buying some other tools and I pointed out the crack in the blade. I wasn't seeking to reduce the price - which was all of $2! - I was really just thinking aloud) I was intending to do a full restoration job and then I realised I would be destroying its integrity. It will stay as it is. https://picasaweb.google.com/timrobinson22/Saws?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2rJ-4l9HslgE#5754110242376162562 https://picasaweb.google.com/timrobinson22/Saws?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2rJ-4l9HslgE#5754110282384341954 https://picasaweb.google.com/timrobinson22/Saws?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2rJ-4l9HslgE#5754110325585337666 https://picasaweb.google.com/timrobinson22/Saws?authkey=Gv1sRgCMy2rJ-4l9HslgE#5754110393813118914 Regards, Tim
Hi Tim, Sorry but you have me beaten on the Ordnance marked saw and I cannot offer much of use on the G and T Gray. Without a stamp or an etch, the saw could have been made by anyone, but you have the consolation of having an exact date for it and an end user. Someone may recognise the handle, but I suspect not as they were probably turned out by the bucketload for a number of different makers. Unfortunately for the G and T Gray, they were at Malinda Street (no 36) for most of their existence, with HSMOB having them at the Australian Works, Malinda Street in 1911 and I cannot see anything on the saw that would enable me to narrow down any dates. Graham ( Ilges 71) is good on stamps and fonts, but unfortunately you have to have something to compare them to of known date and that information does not exist. ( One of the reasons for this site being set up was to amass and collate such information) It would probably be hard enough to do it with Groves, R. Sorbys or Drabble and Sandersons which are very common, but I have seen very few examples of Grays around. It does look like the handle of the Gray is a home-made job to me, I don't even think that it is a commercially produced blank, but that adds interest to the personal history of the saw as it shows that someone valued it enough to go to the time anf effort of making it. Fred
Fred, Thanks for your comments. The handle on the Gray is definitely a user made job. I'm not sure where in the world (literally) you are located (I'm in Sydney) but I think the handle is a bit if Oz hardwood. It really speaks volumes, it might not be beautiful but it is perfectly functional - completely adequate for the job at hand. It was a good saw, who could afford to waste it or the time needed to make one like the original. It just needed to work, and it does. The maker clearly had the skill to make a better one, but why bother? I got into old tools from violin making. The great enigma of the violin world is the world of Guiseppe Guarneri - known as del Gesu from the initials IHS on his lables. His instruments at least equal those of Stradiavari - Paganini played one, as do many of the great soloists of today. Strads are generally gorgeous and exquisitely made. del Gesu's can be as rough as you could imagine. He could work as cleanly as Strad, he just didn't do it all the time. Does it stop them sounding fantastic? Which sort of leads me to the conservation vs restoration argument. As I said in an earlier post, when I got the Gray I was thinking of restoration - then realised what a stupid thing that would be. It should not have taken me so long to figure that one out. Is there a consensus view about how old saws should be treated? I'm an archivist and the general rule in dealing with archives is that any measures taken should be the least possible and everything should be reversible (usually in water). Regards, Tim
Hi Tim, Fred One of my unrealized ambitions is to find one of those rare Australian made saws, so congratulations on a great find. On the question of restoration / conservation, I don't think there is a definitive answer. I think a good approach is to try and preserve the inherent value. Some saws have historical value which outweighs the practical user value. In the case that the historical value is the greater, then you would probably favour conservation and over restoration to "user status" On the other hand, some saws might not have much historic value, but tell an interesting story, modified in some way perhaps.... So, I guess it depends... If you had to restore, then the target condition should be to maintain the condition that a compentent craftsman would desire. Regards Ray
Hi Tim, I was going to reply on the Conserve/Restore conundrum but I was busy at the weekend and Ray beat me to it, and has said about all that there is to say. And very succinctly as well. I personally prefer to conserve although I will buy saws that have been "restored", some horribly so. The only time that I will restore is if I have to remove a lot of rust from a blade to see a stamp. I will then clean the rest of the blade to the extent that the stamp area does not stand out like a saw thumb. But I think that I would not do even this on an important saw. Not that I have any. I like your comment on reversability. That is my watchword in anything practical that I do. In joinery, screws instead of nails so that you can dismantle it easily, stainless steel or brass fixings instead of steel so that they do not corrode and when I do repair books or none load bearing furniture, I always use reversible PVA. I have just bought an enormous cast iron document press that itself needs restoring and is so heavy that I can only dead-lift it to knee height. Anyway, a bit off topic for this site so I will desist. To answer your first query, I am in Scotland and not too far away from the British centre of saw making - Sheffield. I have been promising myself a trip to Sheffield to the Hawley Collection at the Kelham Island museum and now that the days are at their longest and I can do the journey in the light, I hope to do it in the next month. If I can control my enthusiam, I may do a write-up on it that will still leave a little bit of memory left on Ray's server. Fred
Hi Fred, In preserving things of historical/cultural significance it is important to remember that we don't own them, we are just the temporary custodians. In my professional life documentation fo what we do is as important as the actions themselves. You don't want your sucessors cursing you for not explaining what was done and why! We went through Sheffield last yearm staying on a canal boat in the centre of the city overnight. I was with my wife and youngest daughter (who worked last year at a school in West Sussex). Funnily enough I could not get them interested in looking at industrial sites, but I really regret we didn't have the time. Next trip! Actually we were on our way to Scotland which we enjoyed hugely. Without wishing to give offence to our English cousins, whoa re all wonderful and charming, we found the further north we went the more comfortable we were with people. The fabled English politeness and reserve seemed true to us Australians. Perhaps we are just loud mouthed and uncouth but we prefered people to speak their minds. (Yorkshire was heaven for this!). Anyway work beckons. Tim PS - When you say book press do you meand something like the letter copy presses on this page: http://www.officemuseum.com/copy_machines.htm
Hi, Yes, but mine is more like Watt's standard model than the ornate ones. The only thing that I used them for was for applying pressure to books while the glue dried when I did a book restoration (not, alas, conservation) course. I am English but live up here, I was brought up on the Derbyshire coalfield which connects with the Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire ones and so have a lot more in common with Yorkshiremen than some of the Derbyshire hill farmers. If ever you visit, let me know but I think that you will find that the Highland Scots do not say as much as Yorkshiremen, but are just as straightforward when they do speak. I live in Birnam (of the Macbeth "Birnam wood moving to Dunsinane" fame) and it is regarded as the borderline between the Highlands and the Lowlands. To the North and West of Birnam Hill the people are traditionally credited with wearing the kilt, and to the south and east "trews" - trousers. Grossly off topic Ray, I will cease and desist. Fred
Hi Fred, Not as off topic as you might think... My ancestors are Scottish on my father's side. Cornish on my wife's side I probably still have relatives living over there somewhere. I'm heading off to Austria in a few weeks to do some work, and thinking I might try and fit in a side trip to Sheffield... Forget the Olympics, I want to see the Kelham Island Museum, especially the Simon Barley Saw Shop.. Regards Ray