Hi Everybody, I picked this up at a local auction. When I cleaned it I found a name but can't decipher out what/who it is. The saw has one brass rivet with many repairs over the years. Steel rivets, nails, screw on the horn have all been added. London pattern, lamb's tongue. The handle is unusually thin (3/4"). Any ideas on age or country of origin? Thank You Dorran
Beautiful saw Dorran, Nice London pattern handle, was a nice looking piece of wood. Probably English. Looks like JAs GELEN over 'something' STEEL . Toby P.S. I see an M in the word in front of STEEL, so I'll guess GERMAN STEEL.
I think that the name may be Green, but what the JAs stands for I do not know unfortunately. Perhaps an abbreviation of James or even Jason. If you put "Green Jas" through the pre 1850 historical directories, in Whites 1849 (Sheffield) there is a Green Jas and Jph who are cutlers and the Jas of whom who appears in 1856 as a grinder. In Whites 1879 there is a blacksmith, a whitesmith and a scissor manufacturer. In Whites 1852 there is, as well as the now ubiquitous Jas and Jph there is a "Mrs Jas and Co" in West Street (an address not associated with either of the other two) who is a spring knife manufacturer and cutlery dealer. I appreciate that these are of not much help, but they are related trades, especially the cutlers as some early saw-makers are listed under this category. There are some Greens in HSMOB, but the only one with an inital "J" is Jane Green and Sons who uses the archaic "I" for a "J" and who is listed in Baines of 1822 as an edge tool manufacturers in Union Street. Then of course there is the Green of Burgon Green and Co. but I have no trace of his initial. If the saw is British it may be quite early despite the 1870+ pattern handle. I cannot put a reason to that, the mark and the saw just look early. It is about 0100 here so I will finish this bit now but may have a look tomorrow when I am less tired. Fred
Thanks. I think it's Jas Gelzn or Golzn, Gplzn or Green. Wish they made their stamps deeper. I don't think it says cast steel so german sounds right. 1780-1860?
Hi Dorran, The only other Green that I can find, ( and I think that the stamp is Green as, if you discard the mark at the bottom of the "R" as corrosion and not an indent/impress then I don't think that it can be much else) is Green Jas Wm in the Post Office Directory of London 1841 p.410 who is listed as a Cutler and Hardwareman, wholesale, retail and export. I can see that a person who deals in wholesale hardware may want his name put on products that he sells, and especially if he is going to export them. I don't know where you are, but if you are not in the UK, then the export bit may well apply. If you are in the UK then ditto the wholesale bit above. The 1840's could be about right for the handle, for although it has an 1870's+ look to it, the radius and return depth of the curve coming down from the shoulder to the cheeks is quite shallow. A feature that can be associated with earlier saws than 1870+. All this is by no means certain, but it is a possibility. Getting on to safer ground, there is a discussion somewhere on here about why some stamps are less distinguishable than others, and one of the reasons put forward was that if a saw was taper ground after it had been stamped (which they generally were), then the grinding could take off some of the stamp. But then again, there is always the possibility that it was just a poor stamp in the first place. I have just found a couple of handle pictures to show what I mean about the shallow radius above. The top saw has quite a deep return towards the handle, (you can get them a lot more pronounced) but the bottom one is much more like yours. Although I think that both these saws are 1870's or later. Fred
Thanks Fred. I'm in Pennsylvania. This is one of the oldest looking saws I have come across. It has a great tension and hang. I like using old tools and the wear on the handle from years of use. You have me convinced it is Jas Green.
This may help explain it a little. http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/bSmalser/art/strSawBlade/strSawBlade1.asp Toby
Some blades feel 'loose' and some feel 'tight'. A properly tensioned blade feels like a spring under pressure, or as if there was stored energy. You can tension a loose, or dead blade by hammering the length of the back and down the tooth line. (just above the tooth line) A tensioned blade will have a clear 'ring' to it. Toby
From the 1912 Disston Handbook on Saws, http://www.roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/disston1912.pdf Toby
A well tensioned saw for me is really flexible, and has a ringing sound when flexed. It seems like all the energy/flex/spring in the metal just aids in cutting regardless of how sharp the teeth are.
Sorry for the hijack Dorran, I too, have been convinced by Fred that it says GREEN. Whatever it says, It's a nice saw with plenty of character. Toby
I looked under 'James' and found, Green, James (, scissor manufacturers). Residing at Wicker Lane, Sheffield in 1846. Recorded in: Slaters 1846 Directory, Sheffield. Green, James (, Scissor maker). Residing at 24 Nursery Street, in 1852. Recorded in: White's Gazetteer & General Directory of Sheffield - 1852. Green, James (, saw handle maker and joiner). Residing at Totley, in 1871. Recorded in: Whites Sheffield & District Directory - 1871. Under 'Jane' I found, Green, Jane (, edge tool makers (& Sons)). Residing at Scotland Street, in 1787. Recorded in: Gales & Martin Directory of Sheffield - 1787. Green, Jane and Sons (, edge tools and woolshears manufacturers). Residing at Arundel Street, Sheffield in 1825. Recorded in: Gells 1825 Directory of Sheffield. Under 'Jas'., Green, Jas. (~, File Cutter). Residing at 10 Whitham Road, Oaks Bank, in 1871. Recorded in: Whites Shefffield & District Directory - 1871. Under 'Joseph'' Green, Joseph (-, blacksmith). Residing at Masbro Rotherham, in 1837. Recorded in: Whites Directory of Sheffield & Rotherham - 1837. Green, Joseph (~, Blacksmith). Residing at Masbro., in 1841. Recorded in: Henry & Thos. Rodgers Sheff & Roth Directory - 1841. Green, Joseph (, Scissor manufacturer). Residing at Tomcross Lane, in 1852. Recorded in: White's Gazetteer & General Directory of Sheffield - 1852. See what you can make of these Fred, seems to be too many possibilities and no hard clues to point the way. Toby
Hi all, I know little to nothing about tensioning, but refer you to a post of Lui's which pre-dated this particular discussion. http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&t=131 "One last comment that is hard to explain on the internet, is the sound of the saw. It is very ringy, if you hold the saw flat by the handle and tap the toe of the saw, it will ring for about 7-10 seconds. I have no other saw with this characteristic, most will ring but fade out in a second or two. It is very beautiful and odd at the same time." And Simon's reply. "A very fine saw indeed! I think the ringing indicates a properly smithed saw, with the tension adjusted by a master - not what you get from a modern saw which is just polished cold rolled strip steel with teeth cut into it, no matter how wonderfully sharp those flame hardened teeth are to begin with." I don't think that it adds much to the current debate, but does corroborate that tensioning exists and an indicator of said existence is the fact that tensioned saws "ring" to a greater extent than "normal" saws. Now onto Toby's list of Jas/James Greens. The one name that does interest me is the James Green, saw handle maker residing in Totley in 1871. I sincerely hope that it is not as late as the 1870's (although the niggling possibility has always been there), but if it is what better name to give a brand, than the name of your handle supplier. In the piece on the Harrold saw I wrote:- "I understand that it was not uncommon for brand names on saws to be taken from a number of sources including employees." Or perhaps favoured suppliers?? So, handle supplier, hardware wholesaler/exporter, or neither? Fred
old panel saw Steel is such an extraordinarily difficult commodity to understand, I'm not sure I should venture much further into this one. However, two sources may be worth Alan's time to study. One is "Grimshaw on Saws" (Astragal Press reprint of 1880) - pp 102-107, and Holtzappfel "Turning and Mechanical Manipulation" vol 1, pp414-422 on how to flatten a thin plate of metal with a hammer. I find these descriptions almost incomprehensible, and would have no idea how to translate the description into practice, but at least they attest to the notion that tensioning saws was necessary. Tensioning saws has been the practice for centuries, but is not done for contemporary mass-produced handsaws because the steel sheet is prepared with the tension rolled in (don't ask me how). Tensioning still has to be done for circular saws, even quite small ones, to deal with the problem of the metal heating differentially from friction in use. Saw smithing to put the correct tension into saw plate is an art that until recently in Sheffield was learned from long experience - you can't teach it from a book - and many young men who started never mastered it. The Ken Hawley Tool Collection in Sheffield has examples of saw plate which are still in the black (ie unground) and show the hammer marks from the smithing (see attachment), which look rather like the chalk marks on the Smalser link. Yes, the result of rolling steel was to make it more uniform (than hand or hammer forging), but it still had far too many imperfections to perform adequately as spring steel saw plate.
I'm actually not sure where I stand at this point. I had read 'Grimshaw on Saws', and some of 'Holtzappfel "Turning and Mechanical Manipulation' before, but I wasn't looking for anything in particular at the time. Re-reading it now, and looking for historical 'evidence' of tensioning, as the term is used today, I am coming up short. It seems as if it was the means by which they evened out the tension between the tight and loose sections of saw plate. Also I found this (which was apparently a failure) and this and this, dealing with the manufacture of saws without the need hammer them. Toby
I probably didn't use a correct term in saying the saw has good tension. I probably should have said temper or just ringy. I'm not a metallurgist and don't fully understand steel with it's various phases, dislocations, stresses, strength, hardness, crystals, impurities,etc.. If I think of a piece of tempered glass vs regular plate glass and how they feel and act differently (especially when broken). And if I hear can hear/feel a difference between an old saw and a modern saw. I don't think one is better or worse than the other, just different. It is amazing the quality they came up, given what they had to work with, with if a saw made a hundred years ago is just as good as one made today. The fact that these old saws are still available, useable, and effective is why I consider the old ones better than the modern.
How about 'evenly' tensioned, with no tight or loose areas, which apparently took a pretty good smith. Which would have better 'ring' than one with loose spots. Toby