Noooooo........ more R Groves and Sons

Hey Ray et al.
Not that I needed any more but for the cost of a few coffees, I couldn't resist on the 24 inch hand saw. The little one a 14 inch hand saw I got many years ago and I thought it would be nice to include.
The larger saw is a R Groves and Sons Sheffield saw. The stamp has three faint crowns outside the stamp and the USE plus logo inside that. The "chewed" beech handle has 4 split nut screws but what made this saw new for me are the larger "Established 1770" medallion and the three 5/8" "USE plus Logo" screw/medallions. The saw isn't in the greatest shape but it isn't really going to be used.
The diminutive tool box saw is only 14" long and has the notch still intact. The nicely shaped open beech handle is held on with only two split nuts. The stamp is marked R Groves and Sons Sheffield in an arch with the USE and logo over top of that. To the right of the stamp in very small lettering is "cast steel warranted". It seems to me to be a later saw just because of the flatness of the handle.
enjoy
Joe S.

 

Hello Joe,

Someone purportedly famous, but I don't know who once said something like:- "Too much Mozart is a contradiction in terms". The same can be said about Groves' saws ( and, of course many others). You cannot have too many.

Especially when they are adorned with decorated screws, as yours is.

And yes, I have enjoyed. Very much.

Fred.

Ps. I remember Graham (I think) saying in a topic some time ago that the yellow/orange varnish that is on the handle is a feature of early 20th century saws. I think that you are right about the flat handle being a feature of a later saw, but how much later I do not really know. As a complete WAG I would put it at late (ish) Victorian. Does anyone know when this varnish started to be used??

 

Noooooooooo...more R Groves & Sons

My favourite user saws - way out in front - are Groves. They look and sound marvellous.
But I haven't seen a Groves hand saw with four medallions (although frequent back saws with three). Is this (compare the discussion on the Martin saw) another transatlantic example?

The 14inch saw is a grafting saw - could have been part of a tool kit, but they were made in huge numbers to be sold separately.
I think the three crowns struck on the handsaw makes it 1870-1890 period, but the grafter style didn't change over a very very long period - it would certainly fit with a date of c1900.

The two different styles of arched name mark show how many saws Groves made - comparing the minutiae of the chamber stick (their strange looking logo) you can see many changes over a period of 60 years. Incidentally, the "1770" is fiction in the sense that there is no documentation of it - Groves first enters the directories in 1787, and is definitely not in the 1774 directory. Maybe he finished his apprenticeship and started out as a journeyman in 1770, but that's as far as you might say.

 

Noooooooooo...more R Groves & Sons

Hey Guys
Simon, you correct in assuming this was a transatlantic purchase in Canada. I wonder if the Sheffield companies thought that in order to compete with the larger American saw companies who tended to put 4 saw nuts on their "better quality " saws they would have to continue that trend.
I was amused when you said they "look and sound marvelous". I hadn't consciously listened but was very aware of those that sound good when rung. I immediately went and listened to the "ring tone" of the saw and was disappointed with a dull thud. hum....proceeded to grab some others of the walls and was really surprised how some of them just sang. I wonder if there is a correlation between quality and sound or is this a whole new kettle of fish?
Joe S

 

Hello all, and especially Joe as this is his topic that I am hi-jacking,

I would not normally burden you with two topics in one day, but I have returned from my Sunday morning car boot sale expedition with this saw, the Powell of another thread, a mid-ish c.19th S and J 24" and an early c.20th S and J bone saw.

I am also very reticent about hi-jacking someone else's topic, but this saw seems to fit so well here. It is nowhere near as glamorous as Joe's, but it does have a very similar handle and an absolutely enormous blank label screw.

The blade is 26" with a depth of just under 7 1/2 inches at the heel and is filed cross-cut. The three normal screws are 5/8ths inch across and the blank label screw is 1 1/8 inch. It also has a very delicate and almost nonexistent chamfer stop.

I think that in a topic some time ago we came to the conclusion that Groves started to use decorated label screws around the 1850-ish period. If this is the case, then this may be slightly before that, providing that decorated label screws were brought in across their range of saws simultaneoulsy . Does this date still hold??

And seeing as we have created a new descriptive category for saws, I can tell you that this saw sings in a modulated or vibrato manner. This may have something to do with me being tone deaf and the saw having a kinked blade.

Fred

 

Nooooooooo.........more R Groves & Sons

The number of fascinating saws posted on this site is almost too good to be true (away from home again, hence the time to spare to visit).

First, the apprenticeship of R Groves. If he was apprenticed to a saw maker, it would not have had to be registered with the Cutlers' Company, as the saw makers didn't officially enter the Company until about 1860, long after the registration of apprenticeships had lapsed (early 19th cent). A way of tracing him might be by the parish records, in which dates of birth to parents were registered, giving the father's occupation - time-consuming isn't in it...)

Second - the sound of a well-smithed saw is a joy, as is the sound of a well made, well sharpened saw at work.

It's interesting that there is little sign that Groves made anything but first quality saws when marked with their own name (but second qual were B Dawson, 3rd qual Vickers [maybe the other way round] and 4th qual C Walsh). Maybe they did make less than 1st quality and put blind medallions on, as in Joe's. Or maybe they didn't bother, and relied solely on their reputation for UK sales, leaving the plastering on of multiple medallions for the overseas markets. Research into Groves' output is hindered by the lack of catalogues - only their 1915 one is known, and by that time they had been taken over (1892) by Moses Eadon anyway.

 

Nooooooooo.........more R Groves & Sons

Fred
As Simon noticed, I am very jealous of that saw handle of yours. From an aesthetic point, the curves are so proportionate and each bend being mirrored by an understated blank saw nut. The large blank in the centre of the largest curves pulls it all together. Other than the function of the fasteners someone knew how to make something very pleasing to the eye and may have deliberately left out a punched-out logo because it may have been more of a distraction.
Keep sending the good pics for us to enjoy.
Joe S

 

Hello all,

There are a number of Groves threads on here but I have taken the liberty of hi-jacking Joe's topic again because it is so much easier to follow the "thread" of a thread if they are under one heading, and because I am going to contradict (rightly or wrongly) part of my post no 6 of this topic.

This offering is a Groves with a lot of verbiage stamped on the back, with significant amounts of the dreaded orange-yellow varnish on the handle and which looks to me to be original to the saw. This, in my book puts it late. Certainly last quarter of the 19th and possibly early 20th century.

But it has a rather nice large blank medallion accompanied by a 1/2 inch saw screw and which, because of said medallion I might previously (a la my handsaw of this topic) have placed as pre 1850, before the "Use" medallion came in.

But because of the other two afore mentioned features I feel that the later date proposed here is probably nearer right.

So, as always there is a question. Or two as the case may be.

Did Groves generally cease using the 1770 or the Use medallion and if so, when?

If he kept using the 1770 or Use, why is my medallion blank on this saw and also the (now much later in date) handsaw that I posted here?

Both are clearly marked "Groves" and so he isn't trying to palm lesser quality saws off as not being his.

Fred

 

Nooooooooomore Groves

Groves were taken over by Moses Eadon in 1892, and I think styles probably changed then. I have a Groves (or "Groves" perhaps it should be) with an identical mark to Fred's latest, and I) dated that, for better or worse, at about 1910.
The very large blind medallion screws were a feature of Groves, Wheatman & Smith and maybe others in the last decade or so of the 19th cent and into the 20th maybe. This is certainly prime guessing territory.