Hey Ray et al I am again looking for help on a new saw to me. It was purchased from Sandy Moss a while ago and it was purchased quickly as soon as I saw it. As you can see from that very distinctive handle we have again something fairly early. I will first start with the specifics. It is a 12" steel back with an open beech handle and held to the blade by two split nuts. It has that very distinct round cheek like that Barnard saw I previously showed in an earlier thread. Unfortunately I think a previous owner has changed out the first fasteners for a pair of brass split nuts. They may be sympathetic to the age of the saw but they are slightly smaller, have been polished and recede into the vacancies a little too much even if shrinkage had been factored into the tightening of the nuts. Still lots of age and patina in the handle. This is where things get a little harder to figure out and I'm only surmising and guessing on the maker. There again is no name in the steel back but as with early saws you sometimes find the names imprinted into the blade. The pictures don't show what I am seeing very well at all so you will have to trust me with what I am seeing under magnification. Half way in we see the a distinct image of a crown closest to the steel back. Under the crown there is a faint "M" a space then a faint "D" Distinct "A" space for three letters another "A". Pitting on either side of the M and A have removed any hope of seeing any more. Went to my checklist of "Hand Saw Makersof Brittain " by L Schaffer and Don McConnell and came up with the possibility that it was made by Robert or William Dalaway. All the William was obscured by the pitting except for the M. Da would the be the first letters of the last name. Only guessing here but seems to make sense. This leaves me asking this group if they have any knowledge, pictures or even some info on these Birmingham makers and if this saw might tie into this company. I really would also like to thank Simon on all the info he gave us on the Barnard saw. The prospect of having blades made and shipped apart from the handles really causes a lot of interesting problems if we try to distinguish a maker by handle styles. Hope the pics help Joe S
Hi Joe, http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...BkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=william dalaway&f=false The above link takes you to a google books site for William Dalaway. The whole book unfortunately is not on Google, but there is a lot of it to whet the appetite of anyone interested in old tools. It looks fascinating. The saw portrayed does not have the same handle as yours, but at least Dalaway is recorded here, however briefly. The book is also a modern production/reprinting and so it may be possible to get a copy. Another Christmas present!! Hope this helps, Fred
Hi Joe, Wow, you sure have the knack of finding treasure!... Dalaway is a well known early Birmingham maker, but I wasn't aware that he stamped the blade rather than the back. Like the Barnard.. Maybe it was a Birmingham thing. I don't think any Sheffied makers ever did that. HSMOB has the following listing.. Dalaway Robert or William Birmingham 1746-1809. And I posted some extracts from Birmingham directorys, earlier, which I'll link to here as well. 1777 Directory 1781 Directory The reason I repost them here is that I notice, the 1777 directory is "Robert" wheras the 1781 directory is "William" That makes me think that if your saw is marked William then it's possibly later than 1781, but I hesitate to be too dogmatic, it would be nice to see the stamp a little more clearly.. Edit: I missed it before that HSMOB spells it "Dalaway" but the directory spelling is "Dallaway" ... ?? I would not trust the directory spelling, since we know they got Barnard/Bernard wrong... Regards Ray Simon might be able to add more.
New to me, Dalaway Another day, another new 18th century saw from Joe! Gradually we are seeing the emergence of what seems to be the Birmingham pattern back saw of c1770-1790 - egg shaped boss to the handle, 2 screws, thin iron back, name struck on the blade (although this last is the least "usual", given that the Barnett saw is marked on the back, as is a saw by Smith - probably a B'ham man - which is on p83 of the book Tools: working wood in 18th cent America). Maybe Joe could tell us if the width of the back tapers from heel to toe - about 1/8inch? They usually did. It shows how pitifully few surviving saws there are on which to generalise. I've met this puzzle of deeply sunk flat screws before, and I haven't so far been able to explain it. I don't think that it necessarily means that they are replacements, as it seems to be such a common occurrence on 19th cent saws with flat screws. If the file/rasp marks can be seen (magnifying glass) going parallel across the screws, and in the direction that would be optimal for smoothing the wood also, I think that probably means they are old, if not original. Can anyone come up with a likely cause of sunk screw heads? Here is a copy of my entry on the Dalaways: DALAWAY, Robert BIRMINGHAM 16 Deritend 1767-1777 DALAWAY, William Deritend 1780-1803 Both were listed as edge tool and saw makers. By 1808 William was still in Deritend, but listed as a “gentâ€, perhaps indicating that he had retired. A Dalaway saw is illustrated on p4 of Tools: working wood in 18th century America (1993). In the frequent 18th century way, the name was sometimes spelled Dallaway or Dalloway. Christmas Greetings to all Simon Barley
Hello all, Once again my trepidation quotient is dangerously high, not because this time I am putting an "iffy" saw on the site but because I am following Simon Barley. If you follow the link on my first reply, this takes you to the P4 of the same book that Simon mentions and shows you the Dalaway saw. Now two things are obvious even to me, the first is that this saw is stamped on the back and not the blade, and the second thing is that the pattern of the boss is much more conventional for a backsaw than is Joe's, and as was Joe's Barnard saw of an earlier post. Both makers in various guises were operating until 1810 give or take a year (Ray's chronology in Joe's Barnard post) I tentatively pose the proposition that the more rounded bosses and stamped blade may indicate an earlier saw than the one in Gaynor and Hagedorn's book. I have no evidence for this, it just seems to me to be sensible that cultural inertia ( in this case in sawmaking - stamped blades/rounded bosses) would continue until fashions started to change. Is it known when stamping of backs as opposed to blades came in and when the more conventional pattern handles started to emerge. This may shed some light on it. Particularly if it is around the turn of the century. Fred
Hi Fred, You have a keen eye Fred, here is the Dalaway saw you referred to.. image is from:- "Tools - Working Wood in the 18th Century" The handle style looks like a later style than Joe's, so I would think it's William Dalaway, maybe early 1800's rather than 1780's Regarding sunken screws, the only logical explanation I can come up with is that over 200 years the screws would have been tightened hundreds, of times, and gradually the heads of the screws have pulled further and further into the wood. If I tighten the saw screws once every 2 years and each time the head of the screw pulls in by one or two thou. Then over 200 years I will have tightened the screws 100 times, so I would see 0.1 to 0.2 inch movement. The wood would have a couple of years to compress and reshape and the saw is used, requiring a retightening.. One indication that this theory is plausable, would be the amount of thread poking through the nut on the other side, so Joe, could you have a close look at your saw and see how much thread is sticking out.. Also can you measure how far in the screws have sunk. All good theories need to make predictions, so my prediction is that there will be a correlation (of rough sorts) between the depth of usable blade and the amount of screw sinking, since both are related to frequency of use. Regards Ray
I've revised the sunken saw screw theory slightly. What generally makes saw handles come loose is a period of low humidity, so the wood shrinks ever so slightly and the handle becomes slightly loose. The user then tightens the screws and the humidity rises and falls, every time the humidity rises and the wood swells the wood is compressed, under the screws, and then the screws become loose when the humidity decreases next time, and the cycle repeats and the screws slowly sinking into the wood imperceptably with each tightening. Of course it's a long slow process but ultimately it's a one way process, you would never have any reason to loosen saw screws.. (expect to remove the handle of course). The movement will always be to tighten the screws. So the factors affecting the process would be:- the saw would have to be in use over a long period, (100 years or more will do nicely..) in order for there to be someone who cared enough to tighten the screws. The environment would need to be one where humidity levels change from summer to winter. A typical workshop for instance. Increasing the size of the head of the screw would decrease the effect, and so label screws (medallions) should sink less. Smaller headed screws somewhat more. Regards Ray
Thanks for the responses and work on this saw. No more in the "early saw well" here but we will continue to watch and hopefully there will be some more out. It helps when you are aware of the tell tale signs and the education we are getting here. I have included more pics since there was a request for more. I have also included measurements as requested by Ray. To begin with I am inclined to believe as Fred this is an earlier saw. I can imagine there is an evolution of saws even within a particular makers shop. This would have coincided with the beginnings of an industrial evolution where there may have been changes with the machinery in the shop. Ray would know better on the construction of saws and the difficulty and pride in being able to construct saws without a lot of the major conveniences that were common just a few years later. I am sure drilling plate steel,even if you could get it, might dissuade me from drilling more than two holes. A plate would have been stamped with you company's name because it was a special and expensive thing but when distorted and defaced due to a heat treating process we might find other places to place our name if the placement and control of the back was an inhouse process. Simon, The blade depth went from 1, 9/16th to 2, 1/16th if this helps. The thickness of the blade is 1/32" (.6mm). The thickness of the handle is 27/32". The displacement of the screw depth is about 1/16th (1.2mm) on the "screw pole" and similar in the nut face. Simon you can see from the new pics that the nuts have been slightly hammered or tapped and a little polishing of the nuts. The finish around these areas have been slightly removed suggesting later work. I have done my best to point out with little arrows suggesting the stamped letters and the suggestion of a crown. Again I am guessing as to a name but it seems plausible to me. If you need any more info let me know. ....and a Merry Christmas to all of you also. Joe S
New to me, Dalaway? I missed the last few posts on this thread, and am grateful to those (several...) who have corrected my hasty thoughts. I've come back to it because I am trying to finish writing on the marking of makers' names on backsaws, and am concluding - on the basis of a sample of 2 or 3 (scientific it is not) - that one at least Birmingham practice was to strike the name on a backsaw blade and not on the back. There are so very few survivors that it's only possible to be very tentative: I would guess that up to maybe 1770 B'ham makers struck on the blade, and after that date they moved to striking on the back - see a Barnett saw that I swapped for a very early Kenyon last year. (Oh dear, Ray: looked at your tutorial on how to attach pics and am too old and stupid to understand it) I think Ray's suggestion about the sunken screw heads is spot on: another correlate might be the damage to the slots on the nuts - little sunk:little damage and vv. The process is like the way that the joints on chairs become loose over the years. These screws certainly look as though they have been knocked about a good deal. Joe: I wondered if the back itself (not the blade depth under it) is tapered? Here's hoping that what I finish up writing will be credible. Simon
New to me, Dalaway? Hey Simon After I looked at the pics and saw what you did I wondered also, not thinking it important in the first description. Sure enough there is a taper, sort of a "wobbly" taper from the toe to the heel. It measures 7/8" to a 31/32". I assume there is a reason for the question and what might the taper explain to you? curious minds.... Joe
Hi Joe, I've often wondered about tapering spines myself, I've seen tapered spines on Barber&Genn saws, and I think it may be one of those subtle refinements that got lost in the transition from low volume craftsman made to volume production. As to what the advantage might be (if any) I have no idea, if it was pronounced it might change the balance of the saw. Maybe it was just a fashion. Like other features that have defied explanation, the nib comes famously to mind.. but let's not go there. Regards Ray
Whilst searching for another saw I came across this, Reference MS 63 Covering dates 1596 - 1903 Held by Birmingham City Archives Extent 11 series Creators Dallaway, Sarah, fl 1814-1822, of Birmingham, Warwickshire Contents: Records of the trustees of the Will of Sarah Dallaway of Deritend Pinfold Street [no ref. or date] Settlement for £40 following the marriage of Robert Dallaway and Elizabeth Blakesley. MS 63/1 15 January 1713/14 Contents: (Not executed) 1. Robert Dallaway of Birmingham, grinder (of what?) Italics mine 2. Raphael Blakesley of Erdington, yeoman 3. William Blakesley of Hill in Sutton Coldfield, yeoman, and Robert Moore of Birmingham, whitesmith. Property: House in occ. of Robert Dallaway in Pinfold Street, Birmingham. Bull Street. [no ref. or date] Conveyance (by Lease & Release) for £120 MS 63/2-3 15 & 16 Apr. 1707 Contents: 1. William Sleath of Berkeswell, Warks., gent. and Henry Webb of Offchurchbury, gent. 2. Sir Arthur Kaye of Woodhouse, Yorks., bart. (son and heir of Sir John Kaye, decd.), John Knightley alias Wightwick of Offchurchbury, esq., Robert Wilmott esq. (son and heir apparent of Robert Wilmott of Osmaston, Derbys.), Elizabeth Marrow and Arabella Marrow, spinsters (daughters and co-heirs of Sir Samuel Marrow of Berkeswell, decd.) 3. Robert Dallaway of Birmingham, grinder. Property: Four messuages adjoining land of King Edward VI school, John Jennens and George Birch in occupancy of Humphrey Vaughton, Anne Dallaway, widow, Thomas Hull and William Hebeard; in Bull Street, Birmingham. Recites: 1. Declaration of uses, 15 June 1693 2. Revocation and further appointment to William Sleath and Henry Webb, 1 January 1704/5. Lease & Release (copy); As MS 63/2-3 MS 63/4 15 & 16 April 1707 Assignment of Mortgage in trust to attend the inheritance MS 63/5 28 March 1747 Contents: 1. Robert Dallaway of Deritend in Aston, edgetoolmaker. 2. George Dallaway of Coventry, baker. 3. William Dallaway of Birmingham, sheathmaker. Property: Messuage in occupancy of Thomas Barton built by Robert Dallaway deceased. Father of George and Robert; in Bull Street, Birmingham. Recites Mortgage for £160 by George Dallaway to Robert Dallaway, 16 Nov. 1742 From here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=143-ms_63&cid=-1#-1 Whether it adds anything to the saw is a moot point but you can certainly take the lineage and therefore possibly the saw date back a decade or three if you feel brave enough. Have fun Fred Bold type is my highlighting. Note also the "ll" spelling of the name as in post no 3 (Rays). PPPS. Are you sure that the plate is steel and not iron. That would be a turn-up for anyone's book (no names mentioned).
Dallaway Hey Fred Sure was a lot to chew on in that last post. I'm trying to figure out which would have been the last dates of mortgage release. I would assume 1747. So, is the estate Sarah's (Birmingham)who is the wife or daughter of Robert, and thus records of trustees of the will in 1814-22. Long time in between for any date on a saw so not very brave. also.... Is there any way to "quickly and definitively" tell if the plate is iron or steel? Joe S.
Hi Joe, I am still trying to fathom the dates out properly, but this is my take on it. The headline is Sarah's will and her place of residence (Deritend) but which is far too late for your saw.This however brings in references to (primarily) a Robert Dallaway dating back to 1707 or 1713/14 and who is mentioned again with an associated date of 1747 (re a mortgage) and for 1742 re mortgage receipts from George to Robert. Moreover Robert is twice described as a "Grinder" (1707 and 1713/14); and once as an "Edge Tool Maker" with an associated date of 1742. I do not think that it would be too great a step for Robert (as either father or possibly son) to move from grinding and edge tool making to saw making between the 1740's and the 1770's and which could (if this is the right branch of the Dallaways), make your saw very early indeed. The lineage for the family is there, but relating it to the saw is a different kettle of fish. (Hence the need for bravery). It needs some serious genealogical research and which I am, unfortunately not in a position to do. As for iron or steel, I suspect that (barring chemical analysis) it depends on hardness but I am sure that Simon will be able to comment on this if he is minded to and if he reads this. I mentioned it merely as a reference to Huntsman's first production of steel in the 1750's. (Although I don't know where "German steel" fits into this picture. Fred
Hi Joe, (2nd post of today) I am going to stop doing this soon as, interesting though it is, I cannot get very far online. I think that a visit to the national archives in Birmingham would be needed. But here is what I have got. SO 9343 139 1586 ROBERT M 1661 BIRMINGHAM IGI ROBERT 49 SO 9343 139 1587 ROBERT M 1672 BIRMINGHAM IGI THOMAS 49 SO 9343 139 1588 ROBERT M 1690 BIRMINGHAM IGI ROBERT 49 SO 9343 139 1597 ROBERT M 1698 BIRMINGHAM IGI ROBERT 49 SO 9343 139 1593 ROBERT M 1698 BIRMINGHAM IGI ROBERT 49 SO 9343 139 1594 ROBERT M 1699 BIRMINGHAM IGI WILLIAM 49 SO 9343 139 1598 ROBERT M 1699 BIRMINGHAM IGI WILLIAM 50 SP 3379 140 1596 ROBERT M 1726 COVENTRY IGI GEORGE anne 49 SO 9343 139 1592 ROBERT M 1726 BIRMINGHAM IGI GEORGE anne 49 SO 886 139 1589 ROBERT M 1734 DERITEND & BORDESLEY warwick IGI Father Robert Italics mine 49 SO 9343 139 1590 ROBERT M 1737 BIRMINGHAM IGI WILLIAM 49 SO 9343 139 1591 ROBERT M 1741 BIRMINGHAM IGI JOSEPH elizabeth 49 SO 9343 139 1595 ROBERT M 1741 BIRMINGHAM IGI JOSEPH elizabeth 50 SP 684 139 1599 ROBERT M 1742 EDGBASTON IGI JUDD 49 SO 886 139 1358 WILLIAM M 1728 DERITEND & BORDESLEY IGI Father ROBERT italics mine 49 SO 886 139 1364 WILLIAM M 1810 DERITEND & BORDESLEY IGI Father SAMUEL Italics mine From here:- http://www.dallaway.org/listpage.htm There are so many Williams with fathers called Robert or William that I have been very selective and it is possibly better to look at the site in the original, but it looks like the only suitable William at Deritend was born in 1728 which in 1850 would make him 22 and well able to produce saws, with or without his father (Robert) and within a reasonable age-range for inclusion in the the 1777 directory. Fascinating pointers but that is all they are. As for steel and iron (and this is a WAG par excellence), the back of your saw is almost certainly iron. Look at the staining and corrosion patterns/marks on both the back and the saw plate. Are they perchance related??? I will stop now before it gets too silly. Fred