Hi everyone, I'd like to share an unusual saw that I've had for a while & been able to find absolutely nothing about it. To me it looks like some kind of grafter perhaps? The plate is 14" long, 11ppi, a peg style cross cut tooth- but who knows if that's the original. The plate is 26thou all the way through, with a nibbed back although just a stump of the nib remains. It's stamped KNOWELS & Co, three stamped crowns, under Knowels & Co there is a mark that looks like a V&D joined together? So VD B & Co, SHEFFIELD, & German Steel in italics & it nearly looks like a .dot between German & Steel but it may be just a mark. The handle looks like maybe a lower grade saw perhaps, there is a clip filed under the front of the flat of the handle bottom. I've seen another saw recently online with the same trademark, but in a backsaw, please see the attached photos. I've had a look in BSSM to see if it's a secondary or third line maybe I've overlooked something but I couldn't see similar. Any ideas or WAGs on age, purpose & maker welcome...,, Thanks in advance. Mari
Hi Mari, This is an interesting one, particularly as you post as a comparison the Knowles from Bulgaria. A truly awful saw that the man wants an exhorbitant amount for. If you are sure of your spelling, then we may be looking at two different makers/retailers and who I suspect are also about 40 years apart. Yours is Knowels and the Bulgarian saw is Knowles, the much more common spelling. Looking at the upper and lower case "Sheffield" on the Bulgarian saw, this must be a decade either side of the 1860's. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OLD-ANTIQUE-PRIMITIVE-SAW-TOOL-ORIGINAL-SHEFFIELD-SIGNED-/272174342155? The handle on your saw (with or without German.Steel) looks to me to be at least 1900 and possibly/probably later. I have looked for Knowels in the directories from 1895 to 1911 and there are none. There are many Knowles in the 1850's and 60's but no candidates for a sawmaker or ironmonger. The nearest that I can get is a joiner and victualler, although as Ray (I think) said very early on in the lifetime of this site, running a business like this often went hand in hand with saw making. If your Knowels is correct and it is an oddball spelling, then I think that it is much more likely to be a brand of VD B and Co., but how we find out who they were, I do not know - especially as this name on the Bulgarian saw has what looks like a Celtic letter substituted for the VD. Does anyone know early English/Celtic?? It is a mystery to me and I wait for others to comment who know more than I do. Fred
I don't want to sound in any way critical, Mari, but this is a classic lower grade saw! Short blade (at 14 inches probably grafter size), London pattern handle, two screws, German (ie not top quality cast) steel, and a maker we've never found in any lists of saw makers. I've found Knowles & Co in two places: one as a trade mark of the plane iron firm of Aaron Hildick in the Cutlers' Company 1919 list of trade marks, and second (actually as Knowles & Son) in Tweedale's Directory of Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers, a firm of cutlers which ended in the 1870s, leaving (a guess) the trade mark to be bought up (I guess by Hildick, but maybe by someone else first, and then passed on). Yet another guess is that this saw was factored by some firm or other, perhaps for Hildick, although in general cutlers were much more likely to have saws factored for them than were plane iron makers. I've got no suggestions for the VD B bit, as I can't relate the initials to any saw making firm I know. I'm guessing it was made around 1880, give or take a decade. And as for the Bulgarian saw, I've run out of guesses and leave it to Fred. Simon
Thank you Fred & Simon, The mark is Knowels & Co Fred, & that other saw that's in Russia has the different Knowles & Co spelling as you pointed out, but still that puzzling joined "VD" letter, a Celtic letter perhaps as you mentioned- I've got no idea even how to look it up as I don't have that character on my keyboard! Simon, thanks for the information on Hildick, that's very interesting & I'm not surprised that you confirm it's a cheaper line, I thought it must be due to the shape of the handle hole. So most probably a grafter & possibly by Hildick & around 1880s vintage, it is a funny looking thing I bought it because I has not seen another. Thanks again for your replies, that's very helpful... Regards Mari
Hey all With all these puzzles and lack of difinitive truth, I'm thinking there is something to the "Grassy Knoll" es conspiracy theory. hahaha nothing more to add that hasn't already been said. enjoy Joe S.
Mari – I've imported your picture of the mark (nice big image, thank you) and enlarged it to max, and in doing so I feel very sure that the word is Knowles – with magnification the E does have its required bits. I'm hoping to go to the reference library tomorrow, and will look up the Knowleses to see if there is any more to be found out in the complete set of directories that are there.
Has anyone looked in "Trademarks on Base Metal" for either of these names, or VD/VN B and co I lost mine when I changed computers and it takes so long to download with my linespeed that I have never managed to do it again successfully. Fred
Hi & thanks for that Simon, & right you are about the spelling too, good luck with your search in the library! Thanks Joe & Fred too... Regards Mari
I've at last managed to get to the library, as result of which I have added the following entry to the list of additions to BSSM (and if anyone ever manages to sort out the meaning of VD & B, please let me know): "KNOWLES, John & Son SHEFFIELD 55 Burgess Street 1864-1871 Silver and plated wares manufacturers; from 1841-1860 the firm was known as Walker, Knowles & Co, and from 1876 as Lister, Knowles & Co, disappearing from view after 1879. In 1868 a London address was also given, but in its last emanation it had two changes of address and a diminishing list of products, alterations which suggest a firm falling on progressively harder times before final failure. Saws were never listed as one of their products, and the second quality saw illustrated was very likely to have been factored. The meaning of the initials VD B & Co has not been elucidated." (Incidentally, I've made a [low!] offer to the vendor in Bulgaria of the Knowles back saw on ebay) Simon
Hi Simon, that's fantastic that you managed to find some information about the company, I'm surprised at the date range you found, it's a bit earlier than I thought the saw would be. Many thanks for your sleuthing work & efforts.. saws AND silver plated wares, who'd have thought? Regards Mari
My offer to Bulgaria failed to entice the vendor, but I and the museum are grateful to Mari for her offer to repatriate her grafter. Simon
Hello Simon and Mari, My name is Chris Schipper and I live in The Netherlands. A few months ago I purchased a 10 inch backsaw on a flea market (€1,-). It was made by the same maker. The trademark on the saw back says: Knowles & Co. / VD.B & Co / Sheffield / German Steel. I already had a large 59 mm firmer chisel, a small 13 mm chisel, a few gouges and a plane blade that was made by the same maker. The trademark on the 59 mm chisel also has the “VD.B & Co” stamp. Knowles & Co. back saws, chisels and gouges are still fairly easy to find in The Netherlands. If you find an old steel backed back saw in The Netherlands, there is a reasonable change it is made by the makers: ”J. & R. Dodge (Juste Judicato)” or “Knowles & Co”. I found out that three different Knowles & Co trademarks are “announced” in two Dutch newspapers: “Nederlandsche staatscourant, 01-april-1890” & “Rotterdamsch nieuwsblad, 01-march-1890”. The first trademark they describe is for saws. This trademark has crowns and can bear the words “Cast Steel” or “German Steel”. The second trademark they describe is used on a plane blade I have. The contributor of the announcements was the “Trading Company”: R. S. Stokvis & Zonen, Rotterdam. I wouldn’t be surprised if the VD.B & Co mark refers to a Dutch company. An example: “VD” could be a shorter version of “Van den”. The “B” could be: “Berg”, the "Co" could be "Compagnon". This could make it: "Van den Berg & Compagnon" (Van den Berg is a common surname in The Netherlands). This is all a hypothesis. I hope you find the information useful. Greatings, Chris Schipper The Netherlands
Hi Chris, Wow! Thank you so much for your detailed reply... That makes so much sense now regarding the VD.B&Co, I think that you have nailed that mystery! Stamped for perhaps a local hardware merchant / retailer Mess: Van Den Berg & Co, that's awesome! That 59mm wide chisel is impressive by the way, you have some lovely tools there... Kind regards Mari
I love hypotheses, especially when they are so neatly solved? Thanks to Chris for lovely detective work. The 1883 catalogue (from the Ken Hawley Collection) cover confirms the strong Dutch connection. Simon
Hello Simon, Is there more information about Joseph & Robert Dodge inside the tool catalogue? I have some J. & R. Dodge back saws with differences in trademarks. I also have chisels and other tools by this maker. Greatings, Chris
Chris: I have 3 images from the Hawley Collection's catalogue, which is in Dutch, but there may be more in it, although it may be that I haven't photographed them because they aren't about saws. I you would like to send me your email address I may be able to send more pages to you when I am next in the museum (Wednesday next week). And I would be very interested to see your other saw marks, so could you please send them to me at barleys@mac.com I expect that when we've seen what there is, we can share the most relevant on this website. Thanks Simon