I bought this old KENYON off Ebay and would like to receive a criticque on it from "people who know" I was 'told' that it was c1780. I am concerned that the brass back does not extend appreciably from the blade at the front, which I have noticed occurs on the earlier saws. The handle style with ROUNDED top front edge seems correct for that age. Even the sharpening style is correct (hard to describe except to an experienced saw-sharpener) Only 2 split (smaller) nuts.
Hi Roger, I have got to start looking on ebay more closely.. you have a beautiful Kenyon, looks to be in excellent condition, great find. There was an early Kenyon posted here a while back... this is the thread. http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&t=31 The first thing I notice is the closed handle on yours is "dolphin style" rather than "london pattern". I think that rules out the 18th century date, more likely it's early 19th century. The larger Kenyon backsaws in the Seaton toolchest all have London Pattern handles, although of course the smaller open handled dovetail saws are always "fishtail" Dating saws made by a maker like Kenyon, who made saws from 1757 through to the early 1900's is very difficult, since you have to fall back on other less certain factors such as rivets vs screws, different handle patterns and so on, it's also what makes the whole business of identifying and dating saws such an interesting topic. Here are some working dates for early Kenyon saws. 1757 - 1765 Kenyon, Kenyon, Plummer and Jones 1774 Kenyon Hutton and Carr 1787 James Kenyon 1797 John Kenyon 1809-1816 Kenyon Sykes and Co 1821-1823 Kenyon and Co 1823-1825 Kenyon, John and Co 1828-1852 Kenyon, John and Co Here are those thumbnails as in-line images. Regards Ray PS: How are you liking the new forum software? I still want to see inside that Groves catalog you posted the front cover of...
Ray, I only have the scan of the outside page of that Groves catalogue! I appreciate your input into my KENYON and the fact that it is not a London pattern handle and must therefore be at least early 19th C. Would this just apply, though, only to the KENYON brand as I am aware that the London pattern was available through the early years of 20th C. (even my 1959 MARPLES catalogue shows them for sale). I did note that the Back was shaped very similar to my recently acquired W.Richard GROVES in that the top of the back is approx 1/8" flat with short chamfered sloping sides leading down to the vertical part of the back. Was this itself a design element that can be pinned down to a certain era? It cannot have been a bending method of production as per the later brass and steel backs with the rounded top back. Rog
Hi Rog, The more I look at your saw, the more interesting (and confusing) it becomes, the thing which is confusing me is the rounded front of the handle, The seaton tool-chest Kenyons (1797) have a sharp front (at least the ones that Mike Wenzloff is making).. Don McConnell, in HSMOB dates the Dolphin handle pattern to earlier than the London Flat, although he is referring to handsaws not backsaws.. If that applies in this case it would make the date on your saw to prior to 1790 ish, when london pattern handles became the fashion But after the transition from rivetts to split nuts... but that doesn't gel either because I have seen london flat closed handled Kenyon's with rivets? We need to see more saws from this period, to get some sense of the sequence. Saw handle styles are a bit like fashion, they come and they go. All the closed handled saws from the late 18th and early 19th century, say 1790 through to 1820-or 30ish seem to have that london flat style. The fishtail "dolphin" pattern seems to then become fashionable through the rest of the 19th. Although I'm sure there were makers who kept the earlier style. Trying to date saws just on handle style alone, is fraught with difficulties, to give you an example.. If I was to look at a Lie Nielson dovetail saw in 200 years time, I might be convinced that it was made by Richard Groves in the 1830's. The first appearance of a feature or style is still significant however, since it can set a lower bound on the date, for example, If I have a saw that has an etched saw plate, then I can be fairly confidant that it was made after the etching process was introduced in 1849, conversely a saw with a stamped saw plate, could be made at any time before or after 1849. But a saw with a stamped mark on the plate by a maker who is known to have changed over to the etching process after 1849, is likely to be made prior to 1849. Like wise with saw screws. If the screws are original to the saw, and are of the Grovers patent "improved" type, the saw would have to be made after the introduction of that screw design. On the other hand a saw with "split nut" type saw screws, could have been made any time from late 18th century onwards. You can still buy saws today with "split nuts" But a Disston with split nuts can be dated to before the introduction of the other screw types. The transition from rivetted handles to the split nuts was probably late 18th maybe 1780-1790 when split nuts took over from rivets. So a saw with a rivetted handle must be before 1790?... no, I have seen 20th century saws with rivetted handles, (for cost reasons I guess) admittedly different rivet style. But you can say that a saw with "split nuts" is made after 1780-1790. Hope that's not too confusing, there are a lot of factors to take into account, that all combine to give a "feel" or "look" that takes all the clues into account. This is not a precise science, the only time you can be sure of the date is when you have "real" evidence, like the seaton tool chest invoices. All that said, what we need is more pictures of saws over a longer timeframe, and that's exactly why I set up this site in the first place, to provide a place for collecting some of this information together. Regards Ray
Hi Rog, My impression, is that the shape of the brass (and steel) backs gets sharper over time, the bottom of the back (where it meets the blade), seems to be more rounded on earlier saws. Not sure whether there is a different manufacturing process involved or just a style. Regards Ray PS Pity about the Groves Catalogue... would have loved to seen inside that! Regarding the handle style, I have emailed Mike Wenzloff, to see what information he remembers from his original inspection of the Seaton Toolchest. I am intrigued by the pronounced taper on the blade..
Hi Rog, Mike Wenzloff replied, (He is now registered to post here, so he can add his own observations.) Hey--yep, looks familiar! See the attached. Though the attached is of the London pattern, the front cheek treatment is pretty identical as well as other features. Someone *could* have reshaped the London pattern into the whale tail along its life. In some of out kits we include the cut lines to do just that on the patterns. Whether the tail treatment is original or not, that is one lovely saw. These sash saws are from about the same period as the early Kenyon DT saw (which ships Wednesday, btw). We also make the sash, though we don't have stock built up yet. Lovely pattern. There's also a complimentary large tenon. I haven't ran across a hand saw from the same early period yet and so don't know if it is much different than the 1790 period of the Seaton chest saws. What a find--tell the owner I am a tad jealous! Take care, Mike
Ray & Mike, I appreciate both your inputs into dating this KENYON saw, but find it difficult to accept that this saw handle was re-shaped from 'London' to its' present form. Sorry Mike, the physical evidence does not support this. I therefore think that we should accept Raymond's evidence as to the 'wordier' information on the back of this saw as being early 19th C. Although I would love to believe otherwise! BUT, I do have a great saw to post to this forum that may well be before 1800, I have just got to shoot the photos!! ....BLYTHE...LONDON??? Rog
Hi Rog, I think the jury's still out on this one, The two conflicting features in the handle are the rounded front is generally a feature of the earlier period, say 1780's ish whereas the dolphin "fishtail" (on closed handle backsaws at least) is usually thought of as a later fashion. say 1820 ish onwards It's possible that this saw is the proof that the fishtail pattern evident on earlier closed handle handsaws, and open handle backsaws, of the period was indeed used on closed handle backsaws as well. So we have to look for other clues, and see more saws of the period to be more confidant, I wouldn't be too hasty to rule out 1780's era. Do you have a close up picture of the mark? I'm not sure what you mean "wordier" I think you might be referring to another saw? Regards Ray
Here is the stamp marked on the KENYON...just that + CAST STEEL I have also included some shots of the Fish-tail handle which does not look to me to be a later sculpture...the finish is as that of the rest of the handle. Also of note, as shown, the top horn has been re-shaped sometime in the past, no doubt due to the usual breakage. Rog. Hope the photos are OK after I had to re-size for the site
Hi Rog, that saw got my interest, too. But you wanted her a little more. So I asked the seller to send me more and bigger pictures to make a replica. He sent me pics but couldn't tell me the thicknes off the wood and the distance between the horns. Would you mind to tell me? I send the seller a link and invited him to join us. Maybe he knows more? Cheers Pedder
Pedder, Sorry that I beat you in the auction, but I am most happy to supply you with any details on the saw that you need. In answer to your questions: The handle thickness is 7/8" at the horns, 7/8" at the tongue and then narrowing to the rounded front at 3/4". The horns, which I have mentioned have a reworked top horn due no doubt to the usual damage, are, as they presently stand, 4.3/8" outside tip to outside tip. Roger
Hi Roger, there where quite a few between us, so no need to worry. Thank you for the measurements, we will work with them. Do you have a scanner and could take scans of the saw? For making replicas that scans work a lot better than pictures of a camera. I loaded a few more pictures of the saw on my blog: http://pedder-altedamenauskiel.blogspot.com/2010/10/gebrochene-kenyon-with-broken-handle.html She's a beauty. Cheers Pedder
Hi Pedder, I've been looking at that handle pattern closely as well, it has a degree of refinement and elegance that just appeals more and more. Please tell me that you and Klaus are going to make a "Two Lawyers" version! That would be a beautiful saw. Can you upload some pictures, (when you have time) of your current saws to the gallery, I would like to put some of them on the front page of the web site, especially that ebony handled dovetail saw. Also that plum handled one as well. For those who can't wait, go here... http://two-lawyers-toolworks.blogspot.com/ Regards Ray
Pedder, I do have a scanner and would be most pleased to scan the actual saw for you, is it just the handle that you want? From reading further, I deduce that you manufacture handsaws?, and if this is the case, and you want to reproduce MY saw, you must promise to sell me one of your reproductions! Deal? I do not know whether the site Administrator would prefer that these personal dealings take place email to email, so can you email me at: [email address deleted_by_admin] to establish a link and we can take it from there. Regards, Roger Hi Roger, I have no problem with that, but, you should keep your email address private to avoid being harvested by spammers. If you click on pedder's name you can send him a PM (private message) with your email address. .. ray
Another Kenyon I am the eBay seller of the Kenyon saw in this thread. Attached are photos of another Kenyon saw that I found one night about 20 years ago at a small country auction. It was with a hand stamped framing square and I was the sole bidder at $1. The handle was in three pieces when found. I wish I had taken before photos. By the way, this saw is not for sale.
Hi Bob, Thanks for posting that, and congratulations on a great find. Interesting to compare yours with Roger's and the Seaton Chest saws. Your handle pattern looks very close to the Seaton Chest saws (1790's era) I note with interest the dot in the "CAST.STEEL" stamp. Regards Ray
Hi Roger, on scan of the handle and one of most of the saw with the handle would be great. It would be great too, to know exactly how long and how deep and how thick the blade is. Certainly we will sell you every saw you order. We are custom saw maker. ) You can send me an E-mail to see attachment Cheers Pedder