Kenyon-Green Saw?

Hello All,
I got this saw from an internet seller a few weeks ago. It was advertised as a Kenyon-Green saw, since the back is marked Kenyon & Co and the blade is marked Green. As soon as I saw it I thought it was a marriage (the back overhanging the nose of the blade and the nose curved like a panel saw), and when it arrived my suspicion was confirmed. When I removed the back I discovered that whoever had officiated at the marriage had had to file the top of the blade for the back to fit on. The blade measures around .030 at the tooth line and around .040 at the other side, except where it was filed down to around .026 to fit into the Kenyon steel back. The file marks are quite visible.

Incidentally, the Kenyon & Co steel back has an extreme taper; from 7/8" at the heel to 5/8" at the toe, over 19 1/4". It was cut at an angle to avoid interfering with the top screw on the handle, when it was married.

The Green panel saw has a 20" blade and is filed 10ppi. The curved nose looks original. Under magnification there are many marks of wear on the thin front edge of the curve, from the teeth up around to the top, indicating that the nose has been that shape for a long time.

The handle appears early to me, resembling the handle on the pictured White backsaw, thought to be mid 18c, although the Green handle doesn't have as full a curve to the cheek as the White.

The only edge tool makers named Green that appear in the pre 1800 directories are Hannah Green & Son and Jane Green & Sons. The 1787 Gales & Martin directory indicates the marks that these makers used at that time. Hannah Green & Son had a mark that showed John over Green followed by (I believe) a horizontal fleur de lys. Jane Green & Sons used a mark that simply said Green. Which is all well and good if this saw is actually pre-1800, but I don't know. Handle shapes can be used for a long time after they're first introduced and Green is a fairly common name. It's a curious saw and I look forward to hearing what thoughts wiser folks have about it.
Cheers,
David

 

Hi David,
I don't really know what I am talking about so just some comments.

You are right I think in that this looks like a Green handsaw stiffened up with a Kenyon back.

The handle must be early. I don't think that that shaped handle was used after the 18th century.

It looks like you have three crowns on the "Green" blade with the "G" of Green appearing under the middle crown and so that would indicate (to me at least) that there was a word before Green and by the looks of it the end of the last letter is an upright. Poss.the last upright of an "N"???

Whatever this saw does turn out to be in the end, it is a lovely saw, despite its being adapted.

You really must generate and envy icon Ray.

Fred

 

Hi Fred,

Yes, I noticed that upright line in the photo enlargement as well. But when I look at the actual mark under magnification nothing like it appears, while the letters in Green are very crisp. I think that upright line is an artifact of the lighting for the photo, although the spacing of the crowns does suggest there might be more to the mark.

Simon Barley seems quite firm in his belief that the crowns do not appear before 1810 or so, which also gives me caution to claim an 18c age for this saw. But the handle (which apparently has never been removed) seems so much earlier. As I said, it's a curious saw. I'd love to be able to pin it down more precisely, rather than just thinking it curious.
David

 

Hi David again,

I do think that the handle is old. I know little of crowns and would not wish to dispute the matter with Simon but there are exceptions that prove the rule.

The G of Green is still under the middle crown and the N, were it to be visible would not extend past the final crown. There therefore should be a name of 4 or 5 letters in front of the G. (Up to the first crown)

If you look at page 60 in the 1787 directory there are two other Greens who are described as Cutlers and which in those days could cover a multitude of sins including saw making.

John would fit and Jonathon could be abbreviated to fit.

And that is before you get to James and Thomas who are also cutlers.

Clutching at straws, I know. But they are possibilities.

Fred

 

Hey David et al.
Must have been some history to that saw. Haven't got a lot to add to Fred's post. Got to agree that there looks like a name or some lettering to the left of the Green and the last letter looks like a "N". Love to see pics of the other side also. I agreee with the idea that it was a panel saw that some thought it needed stiffening up so added a spline. Maybe from an older Kenyon sitting around the shop to place it on the slightly newer Green.
Only conjecture but very cool saw David.

Joe S.