John Marsh, Sheffield

I recently bought a backsaw and found it to have the stamp of John Marsh, Pondworks, Sheffield.

I did a search of previous backsaw.net discussions to find this discussion of a James Marsh backsaw that has some similar characteristics to the one I bought. http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&t=261

The saw I have is a small 8-inch saw and appears to have the same M & S medallion. Differences are found on the spine. This one is stamped John Marsh in an arc rather than the straight James Marsh with the same 3 crowns appear surrounding "Cast Steel". "Pondworks" appears to be in Italics rather than the the more upright text in the James Marsh saw and the beaver design seen in the medallion is repeated--being stamped below the John Marsh name. There may be something stamped below the beavers but even under magnification I cannot make anything out.

I am curious--is this saw from the same general time period as the James Marsh saw?

Here are some photos I took last night. Perhaps I can take some clearer photos later.

Thanks,
Joe

 

Hi Joe,

Not a lot is easy about saws this old and I cannot add much, and what I can suggest is not definite information.

I am sure that Simon has mentioned on here before that a mixture of capitals and lower case lettering is indicative of the 1850's although on this saw it is only "Cast Steel" that has this feature. One could WAG, of course that they were using old stamps for the rest of the mark and a newly fashionable one for the Cast Steel one which had worn out before the others, but that is just what it is - a guess.

At least this has a name on it that has some reference in print - "John" as opposed to the previous and elusive "James". John and William Marsh and Thomas Shepherd ran Marshes and Shepherd and so it could well be one of their saws, but equally as well be a saw from the (early??) days of the successor company, Marsh Brothers who carried on the M and S mark.

Without any evidence to back it up whatsoever, I would suggest the 1840's or 50's for a date. It must be about the same age as the James Marsh, but his Cast Steel is in a more "normal" font. Whether this means that yours is slightly earlier, later or just different - I don't know.

Fred

 

Hey Joe
Great saw there.
There is some good info on the "Marshes" in the "Some 19th Century English Woodworking Tools" Kenneth D. Roberts on his page 117. He credits S Polllard "Three Centuries of Sheffeild Steel Making" Sheffield 1965 on the info. I don't have this but it might clear up some of the questions on the saw. It seems there are some 1849 catalogues still in existance. That wonderful corporate mark under the stamp was registered in 1849 and there is an example of the title page of the trade catalogue. I have never seen it on a spine. They were "General Merchants" and Roberts suggests through Pollard that the saws were made for them by Millington and Co.
I might conclude that the saw was made after 1849 up to who knows.
Hope this helps
Joe S.

 

Thank you Fred and Joe for your helpful replies.

In examining the saw more closely, I spotted another difference from the afore-mentioned James Marsh saw.

The James Marsh saw is clearly stamped "Pondworks" whereas the John Marsh saw is less clear but seems to be stamped "Pondsworks" (s after Pond).

I did some online searching of "Pondsworks" and found mention of it in relation to knives (very expensive!) and shaving razors. So far, I have not seen any other Pondsworks saws.

I don't know if this helps in any way but it is an interesting distinction.

I will add a couple photos to hopefully more clearly show the Pondsworks stamp.

Thanks again!
Joe

 

Hi Joe,

I have tried to look up Pond v. Ponds in the directories and while there is a difference, I am not so sure that it is all that helpful as the difference in one letter may well be an error.

In the 1833 directory, Marshes and Shepherd are at Pond Works - minus the "S". In 1849 M and S are at Ponds Works and in 1952 Marsh Brothers are at Ponds Works. There is one directory - 1847 - which I have not yet looked at because it covers a substantial part of England and thus a large search but if there is no error in the 1833 "Pond" then this probably puts the James Marsh a little earlier than yours.

But if or when they added the "S" between 1833 and 1849 would take an intermediately dated source to find out and I do not know of one.

Joe, therefore may well be right and it is a post 1849 date for yours. I would then go for a Marshes Brothers saw of the 1850's

Fred

I have just looked. It is Ponds works in 1847 and so it is not of much help for your saw but may put the James Marsh back by a couple of years, or possibly yours as well.

 

i think the answer here is that James Marsh was one US agent of the firm in the 1850s, and I'm guessing that this is a US purchase.

Here is some of what I've got on them (Pollard, who was prof of economic history in Sheffield, was a very fine writer, and was commissioned by the firm to do the book on them) :

One of the few Sheffield saw making firms that could trace its origins back to the 17th century, although they did not make saws then. Between 1780 and 1815 they traded as James Marsh & Co, or Marsh & Shepherd, specialising in a wide range of knives made from local bar steel. By the 1830’s, according to Geoff Tweedale, “the firm appears to have made (or commissioned from outworkers) almost every type of knife… as well as steel, saws, files and many different types of edge tools†. In 1841 the firm' directory entry was: William & John Marsh, and Thomas Shepherd, merchants, steel refiners and converters, table, butcher and shoe knife, file, saw, and edge tool manufacturers. The merchanting activities of this partnership (which lasted much longer than the above dates of their being listed in the saw makers), were considerable, and they were one of Sheffield’s largest and most successful. In 1828 their profits were £6,670, a sum which should be compared to the annual turnover in 1830 of Spear & Jackson, one of the town’s most successful saw makers, of £6695 (and to the more extraordinary figure - what the Marshes and Shepherd each paid themselves in a year - £200: no wonder their business was able to achieve rapid growth). In the late 1840’s the firm became Marsh Brothers; the American trade (handled there by James and Theophilus Marsh, and their agents) was a major factor in the firm’s expansion, and by 1862, with the directors among the wealthiest men in Sheffield, they employed about 250.
Their addresses were always actually the same place, but they renamed it in the directories over the years:
Pond Works, 10 Forge Lane 1833-1845
Forge lane 1852
Ponds Works, Forge Lane 1856-1871
Ponds Works, Shude Lane 1876-1884
Pond Works, Pond Street (or Shude Lane) 1895-1924
Ponds Steel Works, Shude Lane 1928-1954
In 1862 they were listed as James, Theophilus and Walter Marsh and in 1879 as James and Theophilus Marsh.
As for the crucial question of what the difference is between a James Marsh and a John Marsh saw, I suspect it depended on the date and the place of sale. I would guess that James was more likely to appear on a US-sold saw.