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Discussion in 'Saw Makers Forum' started by cygnet64, Jun 17, 2011.

  1. cygnet64

    cygnet64 Member

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    Hi to all, I'm very new to this forum so be gentle, I was wondering if there was any formula or rule of thumb determining the depth of the Gullets on a saw. I saw(no pun intended) on lui's saw that the gullet depth changed as he changed the ppi of his saw (awesome work too lui, one day I hope to make a saw like that). I have located a fly press but they want $1100.00 for it, is this reasonable or abit pricey, has no tooling ??? Where is a good place to start looking for saw plate as well as files. I have an old Jepson saw vice which I picked up for $50.00 at the markets and it seems to be in good working order, I'm slowly gathering bits and pieces. Has anyone straightened a bent saw? I have an old Disston D8 that has been abused and has a kink in it near the toe end,which I would like to get rid of.
    Any help will be greatly appreciated,Cheers for now Richie
     
  2. lui

    lui Most Valued Member

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    Hi Richie,

    Lots of questions, so hopefully here are some useful answers. Please note that everyone is different so my answers are only my personal opinion.

    The gullet depth is directly related to the ppi of the teeth. The tooth geometry, on western saws, is based on triangular files. These files have equal angles of 60 degrees between the faces. If you make the teeth bigger you need a bigger file to sharpen the teeth.

    There are ways of increasing the gullet depth with advance saw sharpening techniquies ( sloping gullets) but I'd ignore these for now.

    Fly press.

    Don't spend any where near that kind of money on a fly press. All you need is a small sized fly press. A No 1 or No 2, will do you fine. I use a No 1, and easily punch teeth out of 1mm hardened spring steel. Unless you plan an making pit saws you'll be fine.

    Buy one second hand from ebay, but do some research first, there are a couple of you tube tutorials out there on what to look for in a good second hand fly press. I wouldn't spend more than £50 ( pounds) on a fly press with out tooling, but to be honest you'll be very very lucky to find one with the correct tooling anyway. so be prepared to get the tooling made. This isn't cheap. Ray is making his own, so he may post on how it went, once it's done.

    Saw steel.

    The spring steel you need for making a new saw is CS95 hardened and tempered to a VPN of about 530 -570. Every country seems to have it's own coding system to you may have to talk to a specialist to get the equivalent.

    Saw straightening.

    OK, this is a huge topic that can't be easily explained over the internet. Basically read some online guides on the basics, and then have a go on some old cheap saws that can be thrown away when it doesn't work or you get frustrated with it not doing what you expected. The best advice I can give is start with something that isn't that wobbly, you'll have a better chance of fixing it, and a small success will lead you on to harder saw repairs.

    A good starting point would be some articles written by Bob Smalser, that's where I started.

    Saw vices.

    Basically read this blog, http://thesawblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/ There is an article from may 2011 all about saw vices.
    I use a Paramo from 1945, but I will be making my own when I get some time.

    Cheers

    lui
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2011
  3. cygnet64

    cygnet64 Member

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    Thanks for that lui, I will have to sit down and do plenty of research, heaps to learn, I will have to source some good saw files, which I will have to from O/S as it seems to be getting harder to find Triangular files here. Do you think that you could make a hydraulic fly press out of a hydraulic jack or ram ?? On another note, The saw you made is a work of art, (I don't think that I will be cutting timber of that size, but you never know), truly a thing of beauty, keep up the great and informative work, Cheers,Richie.
     
  4. lui

    lui Most Valued Member

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    Hi Richie,

    I assume your living is the US, but dollars are used all over the world so I could be wrong.

    Yes it could be possible to make a hydraulic press, but it would be slower to use and complicated to make, and you may struggle to get the tollerances right compared to buying a proper fly press. I can punch a tooth and set up for the next one in less than 5 seconds, and that's not rushing.

    I looked on ebay USA, and fly presses are rare and expensive, I think they are called somthing else in America, so I could have been looking up the wrong term.

    I found only 3 in the US compared to 70 odd on the uk ebay. I can't beleive that they aren't a common workshop tool in America.

    This seemed quite nice for the price as an example.

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Small-Fly-pre...t=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item45fb4ed410

    regards

    lui
     
  5. cygnet64

    cygnet64 Member

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    Sorry lui, reckon I live in a better place than the US, I live in Australia, I think that fly presses here are rarer than rocking horse doo doo, that is why I was wondering about making a hydraulic press or maybe I could adapt a broaching press, will have to look into that. What make of files do you use for sharpening / shaping?? Cheers for now, Richie
     
  6. lui

    lui Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    77
    Hi Richie,

    I see what you mean about them not coming up for sale very often. I'd have a chat to Ray, he's in your neck of the world and might have some alternatives.

    The files I use are made by F.L. Grobert made in switzerland 2nd cut, they have a flintlock pistol as an emblem.

    They are very good and I've not had any problems with them, however my supplier is finding it hard to get good saw files so we'll see what happens.

    I tried a cheap file the other day and half the teeth on the corners stripped off, I wasn't very impressed.

    As in most things in life you get what you pay for. When it comes to consumables like files, it always becomes a compromise.

    Cheers

    lui
     
  7. cygnet64

    cygnet64 Member

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    6
    Thanks again lui, I will now have some more research to do, I am trying to get as much info as I can before I start. Have you had any progress with your large grinding wheel yet? I would be very interested in how you go with that and how it will work on grinding a saw blade, there seems to be a lot of conjecture in regards to tapering a saw blade and also in tensioning a blade as well. Any ways off to do more research now, thanks once again for your help, Cheers,Richie.
     
  8. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    668
    Hi Ritchie, Lui,

    Welcome to the forum, I think Lui has already said pretty much what I would say, I have some saw plate and slit brass you are welcome to have a play around with. The saw plate is 1095 0.020" x 3" wide, for backsaws.

    You don't absolutely have to have a fly press to cut saw teeth, you can file them just as well.

    There is a great forum here.. http://www.woodworkforums.com/f151/

    Look for posts by IanW he's been making some very nice saws.

    Regards
    Ray

    PS, you should be able to find a flypress for a lot less than $1100, there is one now on ebay for 1/2 that...
    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HERLESS-...05754249?pt=AU_Hand_Tools&hash=item3a65301989
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  9. cygnet64

    cygnet64 Member

    Messages:
    6
    Hi Ray, Thanks for the welcome, Its funny you should mention Ian as he is the person that suggested that I look at what you had been up too, Ian definitely makes some really beautiful saws so I am following what he is up too as well. Thanks for the offer of the blade and brass material mate, at the moment though I need to finish up our renovation projects at home first or the lady of my life will be after me with the broom if you know what I mean, adding to that I need to learn more first and to locate some files etc, I would hate to botch it up first time. I see what you mean about the Two Lawyers saws, they look too good to use. How are your plans coming along for the tooling for your fly press?, as well as your taper grinding of the blades?, The subject of taper grinding is open to a lot of conjecture as to its pros and cons.
    Anyways thanks for the help cheers for now,
    Richie.