Ignore the rest - Look at the handle. (Wingfield Rowbotham)

Hello all,

I am developing an unhealthy and obsessive interest in saw handles, and this one I think is beauty. For those of you who know anything about British steam locomotives, then this must be the "Mallard" of the closed tote saw handle world. It is also on a make of saw that you don't see all that often and so it is even more attractive as a bit of an odd-ball as well.

The saw is 16 inches from blade tip to the tip of the lower horn with an 11 inch blade. The teeth per inch don't really matter because there are no usable ones, but it used to have 111/2 teeth per inch.

To get the down-side out of the way first, it looks as though someone has gone along the cutting ege with a small ball-pein hammer ( they probably did to try to beat the kinks out of it, without much success), and I know the horns are chipped - but who cares?

Now for the nice bit. Look how streamlined it is; how high it sits on the saw; look at the accentuated and elongated lambs tongue; look at the horns and the beak - well just look at it. ( I know it is nothing in comparison to Joe's Barnard saw or Pedder's open tote saws, but they are open tote with a greater freedom of design.)

((If you read this Pedder, it may be an idea to copy or adapt this handle as a design for one of your saws. I am sure that you could do wonders with it.))

In order to compare it I have overlaid it on a Tyzack and Turner and on the unidentified saw of a few topics ago ( and I thought that handle was nice). These photos give some idea of just how elegant the handle is particularly in comparison to the plodding and pedestrian Tyzack. (This is the lighter colour of the two comparison handles.)

Now I know little about the ergonomics of saws and I am sure that some of you do, but I would imagine that there is a limit on how high a handle can sit above the blade of a saw (or how far back from the blade) before it adversely affects the path of the horizontal and vertical forces applied to it.

Judging from using the Tyzack, weight will come into it as well, as this saw is virtually heavy enough to cut just by moving it horizontally over the wood, whereas the Wingfield is light and needs downward pressure.

If it doesn't take too long, could someone explain the ergonomics, or if it does take too long, a book or website that does.

Thanks for bearing with the ramble,
Fred.

PS. The photo's don't do the handle justice and all that I know about Wingfield Rowbotham is that they were taker over by Turner in 1898. Their start date may have been 1791 but they may have been called Wade Wingfield and Rowbotham them. They were still active in 1914.

 

Hi Fred,

this is a beautiful handle. Very fast.

Fast?

Klaus and me tend to two directions in handle desing. Klaus likes the sport car looking handles with high hanged handles in flat angles and I like the handlepart almost vertical. Ferrari and Range Rover.

Ray referred to the rule that the index finger should show to the middle auf the tooth line. I think it is much better if the finger point to the toe. Why do I like that? We used extrem heavy splines on our first saws an use heavy splines now. Our saws don't need any downward pressure. Just steer them thru the wood.

With a high angeled handle you tend to press the saw downward. In addition to the heavy spline that can be too much power, the saw will grab. You can reduce this effect by filing it less aggresiv, but I don't like that. So we reduced the weigth of the spline and lowered the handle a little bit.

That being said, we will try to build every saw a customer asks us to do. )

Ray, the upload of pictures now works fantasticly fast and smooth!

Cheers
Pedder

 

Hi Fred and all,

I want to jump in here. Since I´m new in this forum, I want to introduce myself. My name is Klaus, I´m the saw making partner of Pedder (Two Lawyers Tools). But it would be wrong to call myself a saw maker. I´m just the handle maker. Pedder who makes the blades is the saw maker of us both .

That to be said at first, I do like the handle you show, Fred. It seems to be unusual in several ways but it is intriguing for sure. What I do like especially is the "forward" design of the handle. All design lines which characterize the handle are parallel what I call a very proper and clear design. The front of the cheeks and the part which goes to the lambs tongue have about the same angle as the the hang angle is. The saw seems to say: "Please give me a run, I want to eat some wood". The maker had a keen eye for design and avoided every detail which were able to disturb the clear design settings. Visually it is great. If it´s functionally great as well, is hard to judge by having nothing but some pics.

Unusual is the high hang angle on a closed handle. I´ve never seen a closed handle with similar high hang angle before. That must not be wrong however. As Ray mentioned, the right hang angle depends in the first line on the length of a saw. The shown saw with the length of 11" could have an open handle also. Length and depth would allow that. Open handles with comparable high hang angle are not too rare. So it´s imaginable, that the saw works well with the high angeled handle.

Pedder and I did several tests with different hang angles on open and on closed handles. Our conclusion is that the hang angle influences the cutting characteristics of a saw remarkably. A blade which works well with a lower handle may chatter with a high angeled one. A saw which works well with a high handle will get slower with a lower one. It´s one of the important decisions on saw making to find out just the right hang angle for the saw. The old tool makers knew in the most cases what they did so I guess that this saw was configurated just in the right way.

Since the handle is beautiful and a kind of unique it probably would be well worth to give a reproduction a try. This could be a real challenge. Let´s see.

Klaus

 

OK. I've to step in here. On many of our saws I only do a little filing, so I'm more of a saw filer not a saw maker. ;o)

I really did know, that Klaus likes the handle. The lines lookes much like the first handles he made.

Here is a picture showing our saws one year ago: You will see the differences.

Cheers Pedder

 

Hello all,
Thank-you Ray, Pedder and Klaus for your comments. It is really good to hear from people who "do" something and have the experience, rather than those who merely talk about it.

On looking at the saw in the light of your various comments, it could quite easily be an open handle with an additional elongated lambs tongue. I don't have many open handled saws but the height of this handle, whilst higher than my closed handle larger backsaws, is not as high as some of my shorter bladed open handle backsaws. So in that sense it is a compromise, neither Ferrari nor Range Rover. Perhaps an up-market Audi.

I also like the comment about the weight and the fact that heavy saws only need steering. It is fascinating but intuitively ( and also apparently, practically) true. This saw, although brass backed is relatively light and does need downward pressure. Hence the high angled handle.

I would love to be able to give it a run at a proper cut, but in order to do that, it would need at least 6.5mm grinding off the blade (where the hammer marks are) and then straightening (if that is possible). Unfortunately that is not going to happen soon.

One interesting thought has crossed my mind. As a saw wears down ( for example my unidentified saw of a few posts ago), if the hang angle is to be maintained (irrespective of where it should be - toe or middle: I'll let Pedder and Ray sort that one out), then the angle of the handle should be changed to accommodate the degree of wear??? Or is that one degree of pedantry (if that is a word) too far?

Thanks again for the comments
Fred

 

Hi Fred,

Ray and me can't work out hang angles. There are too many. But let me quote Adam Cherubini from his long saw page: http://www.adamcherubini.com/Long_Saws.html

Generally speaking, I find the 18th c saw styles to be superior to the later 19th c models. The reason is a little complicated. Saws cut by applying force behind the teeth. They don't really need or benefit from a force pushing the teeth down into the wood. Earlier saws typically have their handles designed to focus the sawyer's energy behind the teeth. Later styles had handles that were higher on the heel and focused a portion of the sawyer's energy into downforce, pushing the teeth down into the stock. I have a theory about why this is:

When saw teeth become dull, they ride up over the wood instead of cutting it. When that happens, downforce is required to re-engage the teeth. By making saw handles that used some energy for downforce, makers like Disston were able to produce saws that would go on cutting even when dull. This would be a very good feature for carpenters or craftsmen who lacked the ability to sharpen their own saws. Though the saw would cut slower when the saw was dull, more force could be applied and the cut could continue. I suspect all of us have at least one such saw in our garage or workshop.

18th c saw makers seemed to use the weight of the saw to produce downforce allowing all of the sawyer's energy to go into cutting. Over the last 4 years, I've compared these different styles side by side and found the 18th c style saws to be faster cutting. The downside is that when these saws become dull, they become almost unusable. I think the 18th c saws were designed for professional users who knew how to sharpen them and wanted maximum performance.

I think Adam is fully correct here.

Cheers Pedder

 

Yes that nails it!

One could relaxe the rake a bit, that would do the same thing. Changing the hang angle is a major operation.

Cheers Pedder

 

Hi Ray,

This saw I really would like to try.


Heavy spline and vertical handle. Should aw really good, but I doubt many will like the optic.

The funny thing on Adam's thought is his design of dovetail saws:



Cheers
Pedder

 

Hello all again,

All that I can say at the moment is thank-you for the comprehensive set of replies. I shall have to chew them over very carefully and often before I fully understand them, if I ever do. It has turned into an excellent reference work, especially for those unfamiliar with the topic such as me.

I also have to apologise to Pedder for the throw-away comment about re-hanging the handle as the saw wears. It was a little tongue-in-cheek, (perhaps even "lambs tongue-in-cheek".) I did surmise that it is an unrealistic task. I must learn how to use the "smilies" to denote a perhaps not altogether serious comment.

Fred

 

Hi Fred,

no problem on this side. )

Aggressivness (if there is such a thing) on rip cutting back saws is determinated by at least 4 factors:

Pitch
Rake
Weight of the spline
Position and angle of the handle

To make a good cutting saw you have to fine tune between these factors.

A good example is the Veritas dovetail saw:

coarse pitch 14 tpi
relaxed rake 14°
medium heavy spline
Low positioned handle

Compare to Gramercy

fine pitch 18 tpi
aggressive rake 0° (or 4°)
light spline
high positioned handle

Both saws are fantastic tools. If you change the weight of the splines between these saws the Veritas would become slow and the gramercy to aggresive.

Cheers
Pedder