I Hill. No sun

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by fred0325, Mar 31, 2017.

  1. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,083
    Hello all,

    It is perhaps a bit of a misnomer to call that asterisky thing above the "late" on Hill late Howel saws a sun, but I got the idea from a seller on Ebay some years ago who so described it referring to its allusion to the company's address in Sun Street, London.

    The only problem with this is that neither in HSMOB or BSSM is there reference to such an address so you may wish to take the above description with a pinch of salt.

    Whatever the asterisky thing is, or is supposed to be, it isn't here on this saw.

    The questions then arise:-

    1) was left off by accident?
    2)was it left off by design, and if so, why?
    or

    3)Do we, in fact, have pre and post "Sun" saws by this maker.

    Now to the saw itself. The plate has seen better days in terms of straightness but it does have two screws and is brass backed which would indicate that it was earlier in the life of this company than later and that it was a quality saw.

    I am also assuming that "I" is an archaic form of "J" and this should also put it as an earlier saw

    The handle is 1.03 inches thick and this should indicate that it was also a quality saw in its day.

    The first two questions above are purely rhetorical as the answer can never be known. It might be possible however to find out if there are any other "No sun" saws around, and if so to have a WAG at their dates.

    If they (all :rolleyes:) turn out to be I Hill saws, then this may well indicate some foundation for the pre/post Sun theory.

    If you could scour your collections for such examples (or contrary examples), I would be eternally grateful. If there are none, it could just be put down to being an error in stamping.

    Fred

    NB The 3rd picture below is one that I have on my computer, but I think that it is one that I have snaffled from somewhere. It has the "Sun".
     

    Attached Files:

    Underthedirt likes this.
  2. Underthedirt

    Underthedirt Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    206
    Awesome saw Fred, that would have to be an early Joseph Hill saw, just gorgeous...:)

    Regards

    Mari
     
  3. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Member

    Messages:
    22
     
  4. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Member

    Messages:
    22
    Hi Fred
    I've got 7 or 8 Hill late Howel saws and a few are I Hill and all have the star and yours is the only one I've ever seen without the star. Could be they they just forgot to put the star on or more likely it's from a early batch of I Hill saws and the early ones didn't have it.

    If you ever think of moving it on, let me know.

    Peter
     
  5. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,083
    Hi Peter,

    Whilst at some stage I may dispose of some of my "also rans" and unwanted saws that I have bought in job lots, I am afraid that this one will be one of the last to go and that, I sincerely hope, will only be after I am "gone".

    Fred
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  6. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Member

    Messages:
    22
    Fred
    That's ok, I'm the same with some of my tools but as they say if you don't ask you'll never know.

    With these Hill saws given the numbers of them still floating around they must of sold a lot of them. Looking at a few of them I've noticed the handles seem to come in at least 3 different hand sizes. The brass backs tapper in height and width and on the 14" saws the difference in weight can be as much as 10 ozs. So I think they might have been more like a custom saw than a off the rack type saw.

    Peter
     
  7. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Member

    Messages:
    22
    Fred

    I was just offered another I Hill with no star, so they must be out there.

    Peter
     
  8. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Member

    Messages:
    22
    Fred
    Do a search on google images and you'll see another 3 on there with no star plus a 10" dovetail just popped up on eBay. So very likely the 1839 ones didn't have a star.

    I looked to see if there was anything solar happen in the 1840 's which might of lead them to thinking of using the star. There was "The great comet of 1841" and the date works.

    Peter
     
  9. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,083
    Hello all and Peter,

    These saws are not so rare after all, as I have just bought another one from Ebay (possibly the 10 inch one mentioned by you above), and there was, up for sale at the same time, a lovely what looked to be like 16" saw from America. I bid on it but was the underbidder.

    Perhaps I have been walking round with my eyes closed all these years, but I cannot recollect seeing one before.

    All of the saws seem to be I Hill and so it is still possible that we have pre and post "sun" / "star" saws.

    Fred

    The photographs of this saw do not do the handle justice. It has a very small chip on the bottom horn, but the proportions of the top horn and the fishtail are very nearly perfect as far as I am concerned. The only handle that I liked as much was one which Slava (AKA Greyhound) sent me a picture of and which he made himself. If he doesn't mind I'll post a picture of it sometime.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Member

    Messages:
    22
    Fred
    Yes that is a very nice 10" saw and that is the one I saw on eBay. I already have a 9" no sun with a handle in better shape so I didn't need another one, nice to see that 10" go to a good home.

    The no sun saw in the US yes I did buy that one. It's a 14" (I've never seen a 16" Hill) they said it is 1 1/2lbs and I was after another lighter one so I bought it for the weight not the no sun.

    There was a steel back Howel sold on eBay on the weekend, it was also in the US, did you see that one?

    Peter
     
  11. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,083
    Hi Peter,

    I didn't see the Howel ( I don't always search the .com part of Ebay) and whilst I do buy saws from America I find that the currently low exchange rate, the VAT and Import duties and the postage if the item is not sent via Ebay's Global Shipping system to be a little offputting.

    Fred

    I am glad that you got the 14" Hill, but sorry that I ran the bidding up. I don't use sniping tools on Ebay and so I have to he at my computer at the auction finishing. It is lucky that this saw was finishing after 04:00 and I didn't want it enough to stay up that late, otherwise I may have bid a little bit ;) more for it.
     
  12. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Member

    Messages:
    22
    Hi Fred

    If I can, a question about your 14” saw at the top of the thread. I can’t see it on the photos but does the brass back go into the handle a much smaller distance than you would normally see in a Hill late Howel saw. I’m not sure but I think the mortise into the handle was done differently on the no sun saws and you have only other 14” I know of.

    With the stamp it’s just not the sun and
    no sun, the dot between I and Hill is in different places too.

    Peter
     
  13. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,083
    Hi Peter,

    I am away from home at the moment and will be for about a week.

    When I get back I will try to find the saw, do some measurements and post some extra pictures.

    Fred
     
  14. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Member

    Messages:
    22
    Hi Fred

    There is no hurry. I found evidence of 6 no suns floating around and I’m just trying compare some details on them.

    Peter