Holland And Turner

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by Joe S, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

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    361
    Hey Ray et al
    I have a confession. I REALLY have this thing for solid medallions on saws. Some of my favourite saw handles have these and so when one of these appear in a grab bag of saws I gravitate to them very quickly. Didn't care who made it but it is a pleasant surprise when I am not familiar with the name and have to start a research quest.
    It is a 28" hand saw with an enclosed beach handle, four splti nuts with one being a solid medallion size. Handle has been well loved with the horns a bit bruised. The blade sports "Holland and Turner" in a semi arch stamp over "Bower Works". Sheffield and a very faint Warranted flank each side of the stamp.
    HSOB have one entry year at 1855. I go looking through some of the Sheffield directories and find the Kelly and White directories list them in the "steel and file" manufacturers on Bower Spring. Richard Holland lived at Northumberland road William Turner lived at Upperthorpe but it never said they were saw manufacturers. (As an aside, just punch in the word turner as a search word and see all the different things a turner does in the manufacture of saws. I now see the separate saw screw manufacturers as well as handle makers.) So from the 1840s (nothing in the 1839 directory)to the 1860s they were were steel and file makers. I get the impression they never made saws but had saws made for them . They weren't in it enough to have a separate medallion made but to show off some of their wares they would have some of the products manufactured into usable saws.
    I am curious if anyone else has any other examples of the Holland and Turner products.
    enjoy
    Joe S
     

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  2. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    645
    Hi Joe,

    I'm impressed by your ability to locate great looking saws!

    I tried to find William Turner or Richard Holland in the Sheffield Flood Archives, I did find a William Turner listed as a sawmaker, but at the time of the flood he was working for Drabble and Sanderson.

    https://www2.shu.ac.uk/sfca/claimDetails.cfm?claim=1-928

    He made a claim for lost wages, but subsequently withdrew the claim.

    William Turner is not an uncommon name by any means, ( there are 5 listed in the flood claims archive alone ) not to mention that there are 12 william turners listed in the 1861 census... so I think there is probably no connection to your saw, but you never know?

    Regards
    Ray
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  3. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    645
    Hi Joe,

    I stumbled across an advert in Grace's Guide for Holland and Turner

    [​IMG]

    I think the advert is dated 1848?

    Regards
    Ray
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
  4. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

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    361
    Hey Ray
    Great find. I had no idea about the Grace's guide. One more piece for the info gathering.
    So.... we now know that they were "Merchants and Manufacturers of Engineering and Machine Files, Saws and Edge tools. Again surprising not a lot more examples kicking around for this company.
    As for the saw locating.....getting harder and harder with all the new enthusiastic collectors and users. Persistance helps
    Thanks Again
    Joe S.
     
  5. Barleys

    Barleys Most Valued Member

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    545
    Holland & Turner

    Nice to see a handsaw to match my backsaw by this firm, and to see a very similar opinion about them - probably factors, not makers. I haven't previously thought that a blind medallion might be a sign of penny-pinching - maybe it was, but they could have bought some standard W/S medallions if they wanted to pretty it up. The handle on Joe's looks very 1850s, I think, with the almost right angle turn to the top of the boss.
    I have them thus in my database:

    Bower File and Sussex Steel Works, 12 Bower Spring 1849-1856
    Richard Groves Holland worked in an unknown capacity for Richard Groves (was he a relation?) in the 1840’s at that firm’s Snow Lane works, which was very close to Bower Spring. The directory entries list steel and files as their sole products, and the saw illustrated (9inch iron backsaw) with their name may have been factored. By 1859 the firm was known as Richard Holland & Sons, at the same address, also making steel and files only.
    I'm glad to have more info from Ray - thanks!
     

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  6. pmcgee

    pmcgee Most Valued Member

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  7. JML

    JML New Member

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    This thread seems to be the only place on the web that has information about Holland&Turner saws.

    I just found one in a free box of saws in San Francisco, CA. So I'll add it to the collection.

    Appears to be some type of (very) tapered carcass? saw, 12" long, 9 point.
    Could not find much more information about Holland & Turner than reported before. Steel & files manufacturers. Saw probably from 1845-1850.

    a few tidbits I managed to dig:
    P368 - list of Designs for articles of utility Registered under 6 & 7 vic. cap. 65.
    Richard Holland and William Turner, Sheffield................................. File.

    The register number - 1212 - is the one shown in the ad from grace's guide.


    RICHARD HOLLAND AND SONS’ ASSIGNMENT. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN, that a SECOND DIVIDEND of Bs. 4d. in the Pound, upon all Claims against the Estate of RICHARD HOLLAND and SONS, late of Sussex Steel and File Works, Sheffield, will be Payable at my Office
    October 4, 1862 - Sheffield Daily Telegraph - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

    NOTICE is Hereby Given, that Indenture of Assignment hearing date the Twenty-eighth day of November. One Thousand right Hundred and
    both of Sheffield, in the County York, Steel Merchants and File Manufucturers, tradin* under the style or firm of Richard Holland and Sons," have conveyed aud assigned all their real and pers nal Kstafe and Effects whatsoever and wheresoever,
    December 21, 1861 - Sheffield Daily Telegraph - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

    Don't know what that means.


    p74 - Richard Holland , after completing his elementary schooling , entered the warehouse of his father , who was a steel and file manufacturer .
    P75-p78 suggest Richard Holland was more into steel than tools. A successful & wealthy steel master.

    But unclear if this is the same Richard Holland.



    jm.
     

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