Hello all, I have just had my Christmas present delivered and it was worth waiting for. I don't think that there is that much to say about it except that it is (in my eyes) an absolute beauty (look at the flat, the top horn and the patina - nearly perfect). I am hoping that the date with the three nuts and the flat is pre 1850, and more hopefully, more towards the 1830's. It really is only a three fingered grip and there is a wear patch on the reverse where the index finger has been. There is a slight waver in the blade but I am sure that can be remedied at some stage. Hill late howell according to HSMOB is 1806 to 1905. I have seen a JV Hill late Howel saw on ebay and am wondering whether the JV denotes and earlier or a later saw. Hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Fred This was a private listing on Ebay so I don't know who the other bidders were. Hope you didn't bid Lui.
Hi Fred, The saw is a beauty, I wasn't that well in the run up to christmas so I missed it. The london handle looks early to me, is it actually a london maker or a "london" quality claim. If it's s sheffield maker then the london would suggest an ealy date. All in all a really good saw and another london pattern to put into your collection. Nice find. cheers lui
Hi Lui, It is a London maker not a quality claim. HSMOB has the address as 253 Grays Inn Road WC and they also provide the additional information that JV Hill was formerly the foreman for J Howel. I don't think that the "London" therefore can necessarily help with dating. As a purely rhetorical question, would London always imply that it was London quality steel? I suppose that you could always put London Spring, London to denote both quality and place. Cheers, Fred
Hi Fred, Lui, Congratulations Fred, that's a beautiful looking saw, as Crocodile Dundee would have said ... "Now that's a saw" You have to admire the workers who could rip timber with those big rip saw like that all day long... I remember looking up JV Hill late Howel, in HSMOB, and never thought to chase him any further. I didn't expect he would be hard to find... However it took longer than I thought, I eventually went through all the Hill's one by one in the 1841 London Post Office Commercial Directory And at last found him... Joseph Vaughan Hill, Saw Manufacturer (Maker) I will see what other years he turns up in... and see if we can get a better idea of the operating dates. There is a Hill late Howel backsaw floating around here somewhere, but I can't see it at present. Ok, Here is the mark from that backsaw.. As for date, on your saw, I would think very likely to be pre 1850, just going by the style. Maybe 1830's? Regards Ray Edit: Any Ideas, as to what the "who." abbreviation means, I suspect it might be "wholesaler" I also there is notice a JV Hill folding rule listed here.. http://www.thebestthings.com/measurin.htm
Hill late Howel Lovely saw, indeed, Fred. You have some very discerning Christmas gifters. Here is what I have been able to find out about this man. HILL, Joseph Vaughan LONDON 64 Cromer Street, Gray’s Inn Road [also given as Judd Street] 1834-1836 5 Chichester Place, Gray’s Inn Road 1839-1863 252 Gray’s Inn Road 1864-1909 Saw maker and tool dealer, but also produced many planes marked J.V.Hill; a letter head from his early days describes him as a wholesale saw manufacturer. He was foreman to J.Howell (Howell’s own invariable spelling), planemaker of Chelsea (1806-1840), hence the marks. His use of a zigzag bordered mark is exceptionally late; his marks on saw backs are invariably more deeply struck than almost any other maker’s. Recent research by Jeff Warner has shown that his prosperity (considerable: he died a rich man) was based on his business being close to the piano-making area of London, The longevity of the firm was due to its continuance under the same name for several years after Hill’s death. I think it's unlikely that his saw is as early as 1830; the 3-screw (note the top one - slightly smaller than the other two), narrow-ish nose was the frequent pattern for hand saws from London makers (and "makers" ie those who had them made with their name struck - perhaps JVHill was the wholesaler who supplied them - he was certainly a true saw maker, although I suspect he bought his saw plate, maybe ready rolled, from a Sheffield supplier) - for the period 1860-1880. I have a couple of H late H handsaws with a mark almost identical to Fred's which I have dated (tentatively) at c1880-1890 - but as with nearly all dating, I could well be wrong. A possible clue to lateness is its being a 28inch rip; by that time machine sawing was becoming much more common, and although the hand saws were still being made, and bought, I suspect that the days of many hours of ripping by hand were coming to an end - hence a saw in comparatively good shape - although as Fred says, it's got finger wear, which is always an awesome sign of hard graft. Greetings to all for 2011 Simon
Hill late Howel Hey Fred et al I figured I might include a few more examples of JV Hill late Howel saws of what I might consider somewhat later that I would hope put some perspective on your saw Fred. My example of a 28" hand has the typical beech London pattern handle with the three split nuts. The shape would seem typical of an 1850-70 saw where yours seems much simpler and angular with the interesting drop down effect. I think Simon has nailed it pretty good. My saw has the similar stamp except in includes a "Waster" in a vertical form above the the rest of the stamp. It is stamped over a star. What that means would only be conjecture. A second saw is a 10" steel back with again the "Hill Late Howel London" stamp. It has a nicely shaped (beech)? handle with 2 split nuts. The third saw is an odd one. It would have been a 16" blade (1"1/2 has been broken) that is braced by a 10" brass back stamped similarly to Ray's post. It has an enclosed beech handle with only two split nuts. The brass and steel blade look like this is the way it would have been originally been made. I can't think of why it would have been cut like this to fit a tool box but who knows. Ray's site on surgical saws got me thinking but this saw isn't quite as nice or as refined as those examples. JV Hill it was seems was quite prolific because we see a lot of examples and I really like your example Fred. Joe S
Hi Peter, Someone or other (possibly Milton) said:-"Everything comes to he who waits". I am not absolutely sure that I agree with the sentiment but in this instance, it may be the case. There is currently an "I" Hill late Howell on ebay and as I have never understood where "I" fits into "JV" Hill and the saw is at the top end of my budget I e-mailed Simon about it. He thinks that I is a purposeful archaic substitution for the letter J. Now I do remember some time ago that Ray said that I's and J's were interchangeable up to the 1830's and Simon has previously said the same. (My 1777 dictionary doesn't necessarily agree but perhaps the formal and the vernacular were two different kettles of fish). He dates it at about 1840 and so I Hill may actually be J Hill but without the "V". The seller has this to say about the saw:- James Howel was a London saw maker based in the Kings Road Chelsea between 1820 and 1840. Hill was his foreman. Hill was based in Sun Street (hence the tiny sun stamped above the word "late" in the photograph) but not a saw maker. He acquired Howels old stock (presumably on Howels passing) and had it stamped " I Hill late Howel" with the sun stamp/London. The reference books, features of this saw and clarity of the stamps on it, enable me to be pretty confident on it age i.e 1840 - 1845 (Howel made but Hill sold). He has some interesting ideas but they do not ( by and large) agree with HSMOB even down to Howel's christian name and he does not cite his sources ( not that you normally would on ebay)!! Neither does he agree completely with Simon's dates. I looked through Sun Street in the 1841 directory but could find no I Hill there. Anyway, after all this what has an "I" got to do with an "A" Hill on your saw. I suspect that the A may well in fact be an I and so the above ramble may shed some light on things. I attach below a copy of the image currently on Ebay and you will see that the "I" has a very thick vertical which, if the stamp didn't take properly or was damaged may be corrupted into an "A" or the semblance of one. If it is truely an "A", then you have a real oddball and it is back to the drawing board. Hope it helps Fred
I know this is an old thread, but it relates to one of the saws I bought this morning for $10 Aus. The photos show it pretty much as found, other than a light clean and Danish oil on the handle. 26" rather than 28 and I'm not sure how it was originally sharpened - anyone have any thoughts? Regards, Tim
Hi Tim, As a complete WAG, I would refer you to Simon's comment above re the movement from hand to machine rip sawing, and a generalisation from it that later saws that are in good condition generally ( in my experience) tend to be rip sharpened. Particularly those that have a lot of blade left, as does yours. I have only a handful of 26"crosscuts and none have the depth of blade left that yours does. Because yours has survived so well, it may be that it was a later saw that was put out to grass when mechanical ripping came in. Some of the sharper and better preserved teeth still look rip to me. Fred
Hi Fred, Many thanks for the reply. Simon's comments are interesting and relevant. I know almost nothing about the spread of machine sawing in Australia. My suspicion is that in many parts of the bush it was not fast. In the timber getting areas things were different, but the "tyranny of distance" is a significant factor in Australia. Of course, I don't know the history of this saw, other than someone in 2005 cleaned it and an early Disston (?) warranted superior in newspaper and they ended up in a flea market where I bought them. The lack of use may well imply redundancy but I often buy late 19th century Disston crosscut saws which have very little use. I often wonder what their stories are and what else is sitting in sheds out there. Regards and thanks Tim
In an attempt to fill another of the many gaps in my knowledge I did bit of a search for saw milling in Sydney. There was a big steam mill earlier than I thought: http://dictionaryofsydney.org/structure/john_booths_steam_saw_mills http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemLarge.aspx?itemID=413659 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/70603978 Regards, Tim