Hi all , i have found a few interesting saws over the past couple of months. here's the first one ... could you help me figure out if this is in fact a "& son" or a missing "s"(probably the later). Etheir way it's still quite different from the others (toothcount/size) and it would be good to know how to treat it ( i would like to use it but it'll need some straightening). thanks in advance. Regards Victor
Hi Victor, There was a Groves and Son from 1817 to 1821 according to HSMOB. However. I am not so sure that your saw is from this date. I would put it during the latter third of the 19th C., the reasons being that the handle has four screws and the return indent on the handle as it runs under the chamfer/shoulder is very pronounced and which I associate with later saws. It certainly looks like a "Son" however, but on closer inspection you can see two small horizontal lines where the "S" should be, and if you look at the "S" at the end of Groves, you will see the same two little marks, only this time one of them is connected to the bottom of the S. I find the mark fascinating a the letters are so widely spaced, almost as if they were done my separate letter stamps (unlikely but possible) but which, if it were the case may explain the two marks at the bottom of the Sons "S" if the stamp was applied unevenly. Although there is a possibility as with all saws that have been ground, that the grinding process has removed it. Which if either of these it is - take your pick. I think that how you treat the saw, depends on what you want to do with it and as it is not straight, if you want to have it as a user, then try straightening it first (and good luck on that). If it cannot make a user saw, then the extent and method of the cleaning is a matter of personal taste. All in all, I think, a saw well worth having. Fred
Thank's for the info Fred , the pics are not so good so i'll find a better camera and send some more then. The saw can be a user but there are a few thing's wrong ( broken split nut , gaps around others , a bit of a twist etc) . For what reason someone removed the medalion is beyond me , probably that same someone created a few of the other issues too. The saw plate is just under 17" with around 10 TPI, the only hand saw i have of that size ( well and a pruning saw of 14"). P.S. Once i find out how to upload to the gallery i'll send some pic's of some other saws
Can I nudge in here also and ask for a recap on the (no doubt) quite obvious. I don't have a clear schedule in my head regarding stamped mark, no medallion, london pattern handle ... I'm sure it might be quite a range. Thanks, Paul
Hi Paul, It is either a later cheapie or a quite early one (pre medallion 1850 -ish), but Sons plural - post 1822. On the shape of the handle alone, I would put it as early -ish. Three screws and very little return on the curve below the shoulder. I would guess pre 1840, but I have no concrete basis for this date at all. A pure WAG And, as I often say - I have been wrong before. Fred
In Australia we have an expression for it ... - "complete mess" or sometimes ... - "potential divorce"
Thank you Fred. The late cheap versions would be 1900 or 1890 onwards sort of period? I can't get the timeline to come up in any browser ... when did taper grinding appear? I take it that it wasn't a US invention - that it started in the UK or Europe? Cheers, Paul
Hi Paul, I am afraid that don't know when taper grinding started, and I cannot remember it being a feature on Ray's timeline. I have always thought that the "cheapies" started from the 1870's, possibly going back into the 1860's. On taking a second and many subsequent looks, I cannot imagine with that style of handle and no medallion at all that it is late enough for one of these. If it is, then it must be a 6th grade saw and I am not so sure that Groves made these. I still, for better or worse stick with my pre/1840's guess. Does anyone have any better or more concrete information. Fred
Groves & Sons Agree this is early rather than later - on the basis of the handle. If a naked-eye look could find faintly struck letters below the rest of the mark, reading Double Refined Spring Steel and then Warranted below that, I don't think it could be earlier than about 1870 - but maybe the corrosion is too great to see that. Taper grinding was a very early feature. The Kenyon saws in the 1797 Seaton Chest in Rochester (Kent, UK) museum were measured 20+ years ago and show consistent thin-to-back of about 6 thousandths. The price statements for Sheffield saw grinders (earliest about 1850) give the prices paid to grinders to do a specified amount of thin to back - the more, the more paid per saw. The cheapest grades had no taper at all. Even in Joseph Moxon's 1678 Mechanick Exercises, he advises those buying a saw that they should choose one with "the edge whereon the teeth are is always made thicker than the back". It's arguable whether the difference in thickness over the plate was achieved more in the rolling of the plate, or in the grinding. When a piece of hot steel was passed through the rolls, there was inevitably some distortion of the rollers, as they were held firmly at the ends, but had to "give" by a tiny amount towards the centre, leading to a plate that came out fractionally thicker in the middle than at the edges. Nowadays, with cold rolled steel strip, differential thickness can be put in deliberately. and also a polish given, so that the need to grind, smith, polish, and re-smith (blocking, as the saw makers called it) has all been rendered unnecessary.
Hello all, I am piggybacking this thread in order to keep all the Groves panel saws in one place. I got this one from a job lot off Ebay and apart from the arrised top and the lack of a 3rd screw there are similarities to Paul's handle. And I have the same problems as I have with Paul's re dating. Is it early or late?? The three crowns are interesting but, I think, meaningless for dating. I don't think that the handle fixings are original. (Re the split on the reverse of the handle where the rivet has been applied) but there definitely has never been a medallion. This to me indicates either post 1822/pre 1850 or a later cheapie after Groves were taken over (I have forgotten the date) and the medallions were discontinued. There is also no candlestick trade mark, but I don't know when this first came out or when it was dropped (if at all). Any dates appreciated. There are only two screws (cheap or early) but an arrised handle (premium quality whether early or late, but I have never seen an arris on an early saw. Didi they put them on such things)? The stamp is offset from the centre of the blade towards the rear, which may not mean anything but I have seen this sort of placing on earlier saws. Equally it could be carelessness on a later saw. So, which is it?? On the arris alone I would have to go for quality and therefore early (pre 1850) but I am not at all wholly convinced. Help please. Fred Edit 18.03.2015. I have been sorting through my saws and came across this one again. I am not so sure that it is correct to say that the handle is arrised. There is certainly a pronounced curve on it, but not the prominent ridge down the middle which looks to me to be a feature of arrising. What I did notice, however is that it is possible ( and a possibility only) that the ampersand is reclining slightly. This feature seems to come up a little better on the saw in real life than on the photo's posted here. If it is reclining, then the saw should be an earlier one (pre 1825??) rather than a later cheapie. Fred