Ray et al. A friend called last week and wondered if I was interested in a Groves saw. He had been at an auction here in southern Ontario and won a saw he didn't know lot about but decided to do a little research. Sure enough he came across the thread I did back in 2009 http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/groves-and-sons-london.36/ and realized that I might be interested when he saw the similarities. I couldn't resist. Another 18inch saw but a little more "gussied" up. It has a brass spine and a Cast steel stamp the previous saw was missing. The handle has a few differences but basically the same. It is in wonderful condition considering its almost 200 year age. Again that reclining ampersand and a straight horizontal Groves and Sons mark. Later discussions on the Groves saws suggested by Fred that the Sons was later than 1821. London would denote a quality product and as Simon mentions not a manufacturing location. I included a pic of the original saw as a comparison. If we find another example I might even be inclined to consider these examples as saws of made for export. Joe S.