Hey Ray et all. I'm probably preaching to the choir here but I'm sure you are all familiar with the need now at tool meets to grab and buy the saw quickly now that there seems to be a lot more saw enthusiasts out there. It is both good, with a larger knowledgeable consumer and bad with the higher cost per saw "thing" that I have noticed. That being said, I offer up this mystery. I took a perfunctory look at this saw thinking it was a typical Groves and Sons brass back. It had the usual "USE" stamped on the spine and the "USE" again in two of the screws that held the closed beech handle including the obligatory paint splatter. The handle also sported the "established 1770" stamp in the other screw. The 16" blade also had the "silver steel, elastic spring temper,warranted" stamp in the spine. All those things suggest it was a Groves saw but where the name is stamped is what remains of an ("IERS"?). I didn't clean the brass on it but it doesn't look as though the stamp was that deeply pressed. Does anyone have an idea who this might have been because this is not a second quality saw? I have some "Colliers" of Brixton saws which I thought was close in spelling but they aren't like this. I am including in a second group of pictures another Groves saw that IMHO was the pinnacle of saw handle design. It looks like the back saw version of a saw that Fred so kindly displayed for us some time ago with the solid nut medallion. Related to this discussion it has a slightly different "cast steel, elastic spring temper, warranted" stamp on the spine. enjoy Joe S.
Hi Joe again, On your "iers" saw, it looks like there is a "V" under and to the left of the partial mark. If this is the case it may well be that that is part of the Groves mark and the "iers" is a retailers or suppliers mark. I think that I have seen Groves before stamped with retailers marks but the stamp is normally to the right of the maker's mark. Still, it is the best WAG that I can come up with. As for your other Groves, that is a beauty. Not only a blank medallion that certaily does something for it, but a lamb's tongue the like of which I have never seen before. The (I think it is called a) re-break curve at the top of the V joint is mirrored by a similar and possible unique carving below it with the added benefit of the bottom radius being carved very thin and delicately. Never mind how fancy some handles are on backsaws, few I think can match this for simplicity. And in its simplicity it oozes class. A handle second to very few. Fred
Joe, might the letters be the end of "VICKERS" ? [Simon once gave me some info that noted that Groves also used the name "Vickers". Perhaps he may have an example if this is correct] Rob
Hey Rob and Fred I think you may have nailed it Rob with the "Vickers". I was sort of confused with the what I thought was an "I" ers. We had this discussion some time back with the USE mark and Vickers was included but the example I showed has the Vickers mark in an arch form. I do remember seeing examples of Vickers brass backs but I can't remember the font style. Hoping Simon might have more to add. Fred, I thought the Groves example was a great pint sized version of the larger hand saw you had. The fifth pic close up really shows how delicate it was and you can see what happens as the stress crack is just begining to show. It isn't all the way through but I am sure the aesthetic form/function relationship had reached a critical point in the design. Joe S.
Glad to see that you guys seem to have gotten it sorted out. I pored over eBay listings, current and completed, looking for any Groves backsaw that had similar markings. Unfortunately, no luck. On the bright side, I did see an example of a saw made for another company, although it had none of the steel type stamping present. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item19cce10e93&item=110811483795&nma=true&pt=UK_Collectable_ToolsHasdware_RL&rt=nc&si=sYRhDKp%252F2cQRdv87msH7dq5CSY0%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc As I have extolled on numerous other sites, Groves made, IMO, the absolute sexiest handles of any maker. Too bad that the prices on their saws are quite high at the moment, as I'd love to add some more. My poor little backsaw is very lonely...