This 18inch backsaw by Carr, Woodhouse and Carr, out of which partnership came John and Riley Carr (and maybe Woodhouse and Caterer), I've dated around the mid 1820s, but it's interesting because the mark gave up its full details only when I'd cleaned out the black polishing compound in the letters and taken a photograph that could be blown up (the thumbnail here has to be looked at in as big a view as possible). The difference between crucible cast steel and the cheaper German steel would not have been apparent to many users, I suspect, and the difference must have been one that the makers would have wanted to maintain chiefly for marketing purposes – a matter of reputation, given that trading standards had no external monitors. Having said that, there is a record of about this period in Sheffield of two cutlers making products that they falsely labelled cast steel but which were of an inferior type and undergoing the indignity of having these products cermonially destroyed in one of the town's public spaces in front of a jeering crowd.
What can I say Simon, An absolutely lovely saw with an even better twist to its tail (?mixed metaphor?). On the subject of German steel, I am sure that when I started collecting saws I read an article on Wikipedia (yes I know about the reliablility of it) that is now not there that German steel, when first introduced, was regarded as a quality steel. From Wiki currently Huntsman experimented in steel manufacture, first at Doncaster. Then in 1740 he moved to Handsworth, near Sheffield. Eventually, after many experiments, Huntsman was able to make satisfactory cast steel, in clay pot crucibles, each holding about 34 pounds of blistered steel. A flux was added, and they were covered and heated by means of coke for about three hours. The molten steel was then poured into moulds and the crucibles reused. The local cutlery manufacturers refused to buy Huntsman's cast steel, as it was harder than the German steel they were accustomed to using. For a long time Huntsman exported his whole output to France.[3] The growing competition of imported French cutlery made from Huntsman's cast-steel alarmed the Sheffield cutlers, who, after trying unsuccessfully to get the export of the steel prohibited by the British government, were compelled to use it in the interests of self-preservation. The steel may have been harder but it was obviously, if this entry is true, not as well regarded in the first instance as German steel. Fred
Fred: my faith in wikipedia sagged considerably when I read the entry on Saw [making]: “Until at least the mid-19th century, saws were made laboriously by hand. The teeth were filed out individually... ” The reference for this farrago is one C Tomlinson, who designated himself FRS ie was a scientist of considerable renown… In fact saw teeth had been made by punching out with a die from at least 1750. Anyway: the entry that Fred quotes is also quite a way out too: the crucibles in Huntsman's time were much smaller than that – Joseph Wilson's records (1753) indicate 15lbs or so. The crucibles were never reused. It's extraordinary that this entry should reference itself no later than 1911 (the pub excepted!), considering that there is a large volume on the history of Crucible Steel (by K C Barraclough, London 1984), which incidentally dispells the "legend" of his process being stolen by a rival. His steel was indeed much better accepted in France and Switzerland than in Sheffield, but considering that other men were making crucible steel in Sheffield and selling it to local men in the cutlery trades, it is very likely (there is no record either way) of him selling it to them too; his extant business records don't start until much later in the 18th cent. Joseph Wilson was making and selling large numbers of cast steel saws by 1768, and – again there are no records – I very much suppose that contemporaries like the Kenyon brothers (their saw making partner Richard Jones, anyway, as the Kenyons were merchants, file and steel makers themselves) were doing the same. As for German steel, the problem with that word is that at different periods it referred to different materials: the 17th cent stuff came from Germany or Austria and was indeed a quality material. The later (post 1810-ish?) use of the word – interestingly enough, only ever applied to and used on saws, although I'm sure that many other varieties of steel for other purposes were extremely similar in properties – was for a steel that was cheaper than, and inferior to, crucible cast. Being a conceited know-all, I suggested to wikipedia that they should update their entry on saws, but receiving a very polite but extraordinarily lengthy set of editorial requirements, I decided there were other things I'd rather do with my life (Like sounding off here). PS This photo shows the wall outside a house in Sheffield, presumably sometime back occupied by a (proud!) steel melter who took some used crucibles home with him. Better than broken glass.