George Carr

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by David, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. David

    David Most Valued Member

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    260
    Hello all,
    There are three George Carrs listed in BSSM with three different start dates; 1787, 1850 and 1870.
    This saw, with its rounded nose and riveted handle, seems to me to be earlier than 187o and perhaps earlier than 1850. So my bet is that this was made by the George Carr who began working in Sheffield in 1787. The combination of a rounded nose and four fasteners securing the handle inclines me to guess the saw was made around 1830-35, which is about when I think the occurrence of those two features overlaps.

    But those are just my bets and guesses. I'd love to hear some other suggestions, or bets, or guesses.
    David
     

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  2. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    618
    Hi David,
    Based on the general appearance and features, you'd be inclined to think it's the earlier George Carr, it might help narrow it down if we can determine when the transition from George Carr to George Carr & Sons took place.

    Regards
    Ray
     
  3. Underthedirt

    Underthedirt Most Valued Member

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    199
    Hi David, that's an unusual one, it looks like the blade is proud of the handle at the top, do you think that the handle is original to the saw? Is the handle beech? The toe certainly has that early look, I like the wolfs head trademark...:)

    Regards

    Mari
     
  4. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    618
    Just another data point, I'm not sure it helps in dating the saw in question, but it shows some interesting connections to the Spear family.

    GeorgeCarr_AlexanderSpear.png

    From the London Gazette November 10th 1789, It would seem the earliest incarnation of George Carr as a sawmaker assigned all his estate and effects to Alexander Spear, (John Spear's Uncle) to pay off his creditors.

    That would seem to imply George Carr was making saws prior to 1789.

    Regards
    Ray
     
  5. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

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    327
    Hey David et al
    Great stuff David. I am guessing it is an early saw for a couple of reasons. We still have the dot between the cast and steel. There is no place of origin. The stamp has two different size type for the first and last name which would seem to be odd, as if it was cobbled together without there being a formal stamp. Early round nose. Haven't seen the wolf stamp trademark before as Mari pointed out. The handle is a bit of a quandary if it is original or is just shrinkage on the top that allows the protrusion of the metal. Everything other than handle to me says 1800-1820.
    Rays Gazette notice also mentions a few names such as James Smith and Joseph Frith (Iron-masters). Saw Makers? I am trying to figure out if this was a loan or a mortgage to stay in business and they would then give all assets to said creditors if defaulted.
    enjoy
    Joe S.
     
  6. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    618
    Gales & Martin 1787 directory lists George Carr and Son Sawmakers, so unless it's a later incarnation, I would think the saw plate might well be before 1787.

    I agree with the other comments that the handle might not be original to the saw, but that said the handle is probably fairly early as well.

    If I was going to place a bet, I'd give it reasonable odds the saw plate is 1780's or earlier and the handle was added later but probably pre 1840.
     
  7. David

    David Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    260
    Thanks everyone,

    Your comments and information in response to my post are just one more example of how wonderful and helpful this site is.

    Yes, Mari, the handle is beech, and I can't tell if the handle is original since the rivets prevent removal to check for other holes. It's very possible that this handle is a replacement. As an aside, I just checked my collection; I have 17 round nose English saws and while one handle is an obvious replacement, five others show some of the blade proud of the handle top. For whatever that might indicate.

    Joe, your observations are spot on. I had forgotten that location stamps don't appear on early saws, and am embarrassed to say that I hadn't noticed the disparity in the sizes of the two name stamps. But all those details you mentioned do reinforce an early date for this saw

    Ray, thanks for your research. The London Gazette notice certainly enriches my understanding of how fragile these early businesses were. I wonder, as Joe does, what exactly that Indenture indicates. Certainly not bankruptcy, as George Carr and his descendants worked in Sheffield for many more years and I would guess that bankruptcy had a much more disastrous meaning then than today. I agree with your dating the plate and the handle separately, it makes the most sense with this being a possible marriage.

    And as to the wolf stamp, that was my first identification as well. But Simon commented on seeing the image that he thought it was a boar. In looking at heraldic representations of animals it seems that wolves have pointed noses, while boars have the same upturned nose as the one on the stamp. Go figure.

    Thanks again,
    David
     
  8. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    1,076
    Hello all,

    There is a 1797 directory which I cannot now find online, but which I am sure was published on the earlier Historical Directories website. I think that this has images of the marks associated with cutlers and sawmakers etc. If anyone has access to a copy it would be interesting to see if the mark for George Carr was published and if it was the same as the one (Boar??) featured here.

    Going to a precis of the directory ( https://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/topic/6631-robinson39s-directory-of-sheffield-1797/ ) there is a George Carr listed as:-

    Carr George steel refiner 2 Green-lane

    and

    Carr George saw maker Bridgehouses (which is the listing in BSSM).

    I know that Simon always puts a caveat on dating a saw by the shape of the nose as this can be adapted at any stage in the saw's life, but this one looks "right" - for what it is worth.

    As for the handle, I am with Joe on this, but I think that it is a fairly late one This is going solely from the chunkyness and design of the lamb's tongue. But whenever it was put on, it was done so before the current rusting took place as I can see no trace of the mark of an earlier handle. Perhaps the earlier handle mark is underneath the current rust, but I wouldn't dare risk cleaning it to find out.

    All in all a nice early saw with probably a later honest repair to it.

    Fred
     
  9. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    1,076
    I have just taken delivery of this rather sad and fore-shortened saw. Luckily I bought it for the handle only, which has four saw screws including a rather good dating medallion.

    BSSM is a little unclear on the dates for Ibbotsons and Roebuck at first reading. It has them at two addresses in Sheffield in 1821 and 1823, but then states that although short lived, the partnership lasted long enough to build the Globe Works. Ibbotson Brothers are recorded as being at the Globe Works in 1828 and Roebuck, by this date was trading on his own. When the Globe Works was built is unclear, but presumably before 1828.

    We therefore have a four screw handle at, or prior to 1828 and which is a new one on me.

    This handle has some (many) similarities to the Carr handle. It is a little more pointed in the nose and I think that the lamb's tongue is slightly less chunky, but it is sufficiently similar to cast some doubt as to the whether or not the Carr handle is a replacement. (Presuming of course that mine is a genuine one). Although I would still, on balance say that it is a later handle.

    If any of you can place the two handles side by side/ top/bottom in the same photo, please feel free to do it. It is beyond my capabilities.

    Fred

    PS My handle has a small problem as well, in contrast to David's blade standing proud of the handle, mine disappears into it far too quickly. See photo 4.
     

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  10. David

    David Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    260
    Hi Fred,
    Here's another four screw handle, also dated 1828 or prior. It's a Shaw & Marshall rip saw and BSSM has an end date for that partnership of 1828.
    David
     

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