Having a day off, I was finally able to take some pictures of my english saws and put it into an album. http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=album.php&albumid=36 I note something about these saws - the (hollow of the) hook on the top of the handle is not tunnelled out flat across. On the three that seem to be the oldest - the hook is distinctly sloped on two sided ... almost like a bishop's mitre. The slope seems to lessen as time progresses - but I think they all still have a dividing line between two sloped halves. I haven't seen that on any of the american saws I have - they are either flat across or slightly rounded down acrossways (assuming that makes sense). By the time of the S&J saws with the prominent medallion and the metal surround it is gone. Cheers, Paul A quick list - R Groves & sons x2 R Greaves & Sons A Spafford H Holmer Alex Mathieson W Butcher Wingfield Rowbotham & Co S&J (shortened) Harley (Old Hay Market) Sorby (kangaroo) unknown (warranted superior) unknown (no medallion) Sparkes & Thompson
Hey Paul Great batch of saws. I would think most of the saws are about 1860 -90 and so the real flair for wild handles had sort of waned. If I understand you in you description there, seems to be a lack of chamfer on the tops of the handles that seem to be more prevalent earlier. I find very early saws didn't have a lot of chamfers either but it was an 1830 -60 style when handles became very exuberant and less restrained. They were also prone to more breakage as they they seem to have gotten too refined for the tasks they were required to perform. (My opine only). I do have some early American saws with the chamfers and I will take pics later. The Sparkes and Thompson is new to me. Early? Joe S.
I don't think I wrote very clearly These three handles I take to be the earliest, and the "hollow of the hook" (better name?) slopes in a curve upward from both sides to meet at the lowest central point of the hollow. I referred to this like a bishop's mitre - or a chess-piece bishop. I need to modify my comment. Checking again, of 15 saws only 6 have a distinct longitudinal line through that hollow - sometimes the whole top. 3 others have a sweeping half-circular profiled hollow with the peak (of the base) in the middle. All of the american saws I have that have that hook and hollow are mostly flat across - some with a hint of curve downwards. Maybe it is just a difference in time of manufacture - but I have a 1860-65 Disston panel saw and it is straight across through the hollow. I was just wondering if this was something people already know about - or is it a red herring? Thanks, Paul I added to the photos ... indicating the lowest point of the hollows. That sweep of wood there is a ridge halfway through the width of the handle - not the far side of the handle.
It's *all* new to me It is a very simple saw - I think it is one of the earliest of the ones I have - buy probably not particularly high quality I am guessing. Thanks, Paul
Hi Paul Handles are problems on English saws. Especially if to try to use reason, commonsense or logic on them and even more so if you put too much credence in them for dating. I have taken some photos of some saws that I had hanging round my study but I was able, even from these few to find most (I suspect) of the basic styles for handsaws. With the added bonus that I can date some of them reasonably accurately. Starting with the Disstons. (1st photo) The back one is a PHILADA and the front one is a PHILA. The back one is the flattest across the top that I have and the front one has a smidgin of a curve to the horn/indent/shoulder. I do not think that I have any English saws with "straight across" horn/indent/shoulder. The 3rd photo from back to front has an S and J "D8", (post 1900?) a Marshall Hadfield (1828/9 according to HSMOB) and my Slack Sellars and Graysons (Unsure but probably around 1840/50). These all have rounded Horns etc. The second lot from back to front are Wheatman and Smith, Tyzack Sons and Turner and a Groves for McPherson. These all exhibit the inverted "V" across the Horns etc. Probably all well after 1860 And just to put the dated cat well amongst the pigeons the final one on its own which, if it were not for the domed nuts would sit well with the Marshall Hadfield and Graysons is a Taylor brothers dated 1917. I could do an inordinately long and rambling WAG about styles, but to cut it short I think that in terms of the ornateness of the handle in the sense that we are talking here it is Quality and date that counts. I think that post 1860 - ish industrial production in general in Britain and saws in particular took off and the merchandising world became more competitive. Hence you made extra efforts with your better quality products and advertised the fact. I know that Wheatman and Smith and Groves made good saws, I am not so sure about Tyzack but I would surmise that the extra detail of the inverted "V" may well indicate a better quality saw. Size and detail of the indent between the horn and the shoulder may well follow the same pattern, but it is not so clear on these examples. After all, the poorer quality ones at this time reverted from lamb's tonge to London pattern handles with flattened bottom horns On the earlier saws with rounded tops (S and J excepted) I don't think that there was the need to tart them up in that way, although for the American market they were tarted up in other ways. I could, of course be completely wrong, and as always, all refutations gratefully received Fred Sorry about the photo's being out of sequence but I did the text in the order that I wanted it and then put the photo's on in a different order. (2 and 3 reversed)
Hi Paul, I had a quick look at my saws, and the pronounced rounding of the handle top that you've noted does seem to be slightly time biased towards earlier saws (say mid 1800s), but it does seem to stretch to late 1800s period. This means the time period for pronounced rounding overlaps the time period for handles with little or no rounding. i.e. a dating aid with many exceptions ! If I arbitrarily put my saws into three "rounding" catagories, where the degree of rounding across the handle top refers to the height difference between the centre of the handle compared to the edges, or the rise across the handle thickness; Flat = no rise, or only a smidgen Medium rounding = 1/8"-1/4" rise (3-6mm) Pronounced rounding = greater than 1/4" rise I have half a dozen English saws with Pronounced rounding, from Wragg Long & Co and Edwd Taylor of c1830s, to an etched J Taylor & Son of c1890 But I also have half a dozen Medium rounded handles on saws from Thompson Griffin & Co of early 1800s to Hargreaves Smith & Co of late 1800s For American saws, I only have one handle with pronounced rounding, a Willmott c1850 (see picture) I also have a few with medium rounding ( Flint, Boynton, and a warranted superior that has "Galt Ont" as part of the blade stamp so is probably Shurly&Dietrich), all likely from 1860-1880ish But most of my American handle tops have a Flat cross section This suggests that handles having tops with pronounced rounding would probably be from 1830-1890 period, (with the usual exceptions of course), which leaves plenty of room for the usual Wild Ass Guesses from the WAG experts.
Thanks very much for the feedback. No doubt some very nice handles out there Paul. (Extending the field in Wild Ass Guessing)
Engish saws Fascinating thread - thanks for starting it, Paul. Can add one or two comments (there's a whole chapter in my book on handles and handle making - I'm so frustrated not to be able to put it out there!) and agree with Fred that it's a distinctly tricky area. On nomenclature and naming/describing: I have been told (many times, and forcefully) by Ken Hawley that coining one's own terms, however tempting, is unhistorical and can run contrary to the terms used in the Sheffield saw-making industry, so I prefer to avoid "lamb's tongue" and "split-nut", even though they've become so well known. I must admit that the industry didn't have its own terms for these particular features, so I could reasonably be described as pretty stupid (and not for the first time). However, there were terms for Paul's hook and hollow - the larger one was a peak, and the smaller one a bead; the best handles in the handle-makers' Statement of Prices (what they were paid to make them) had at most 2 beads and 2 peaks - short excerpt from the 1847 Statement hereunder: Per Doz. s. d. Spring Handles, full pattern, viz, - 2 beads, 2 peaks 7 0 Do. Do plain do 1 bead, 1 peak 6 0 30inch Cast Steel Rippers, Crooked Horn, without bead 5 4 28 inch do. do. do. 5 0 24 &26in do. do. do. 4 6 24 &26in do. do. do. 1 bead 5 0 24 &26in do. do. do. 2 beads 5 6 24 &26in do. Straight Horn, 1 bead in back 4 6 Although I think that the cheapest handles probably were finished straight across, there is nothing in the Statements about that, nor about a feature that Fred refers to as an inverted V, which was called an arrised handle (Ken told me he was told this word as an aside once when he was talking to Mr Garlick, the saw maker, but again, it isn't in the Statements). I've seen this style on several makers' products, always the best ones, and on hand saws only (and one back saw); dates probably about 1880-1910. And thanks, Paul, for giving me an entirely new maker, Sparkes and Thompson; I've been able to construct, from Historicaldirectories.org (so it's limited to what's on there) the following: Sparkes & Thompson Worcester 50 High Street <1842> Ironmongers William Sparkes 50 High Street <1850> Ironmonger, cutler, brazier, tinplate worker, bell hanger; agent to the Medical Invalid and General Assurance Company 50 Fish Street <1855> Ironmonger, tinman, brazier, locksmith and whitesmith May I use your mark illustration to go with the entry in the list of makers? No entry for him in 1828 or 1861. At a guess, I would suggest this saw was made for them by a Birmingham maker, presumably in the 1840s, give or take a few years. PS The numbers after the handle pricings are shillings and pence.