Early Groves handsaw

Hello all,

This to me looks early - ish. I am pretty sure that it must be pre 1840 and hopefully back into the 1830's or late 1820's. The mark is very simple (no adornments of crowns or excess verbiage or USE trademark), 3 no. 7/16th saw screws and a lovely shallow curve back towards the cheeks.

What I did not notice on the seller's photo, but cannot help but see in real life is the arrissed chamfer, chamfer stop/beak/hook, all of which are very prominent and "in-your-face", and the photo's do not do them justice.

The blade is also surprisingly straight with a good and reasonably sharp tooth-line.

The handle does have a crack in it, but as I say to customers who quibble over the condition of old tools "Come back to me when you are that old and still perfect".

This must have been a quality saw in it's day and for what it is worth, I still rate it.

Fred

 

Hi Fred,
Arrissed handles like that are fine things and surely indicate a fine saw. I agree with your dating, tentative as it is. I have a similar saw, differing only in having a blind medallion, that I tentatively dated "1820?-1840/50" So perhaps both of our tentative guesses might firm up into a consensus somewhere around 1830-40?
David

 

Hi David,

Thanks for your reply. Without any evidence whatsoever I would WAG 1830's.

Have you put your saw on here? I have looked but cannot find one under your name. If you haven't would you consider piggybacking this thread and putting a photo on?

Fred

 

Here it is, Fred. It's 26" long. The only discernible differences from your saw are the addition of the blind medallion and perhaps the size of the cheek. This is my only record photo, but I'll try to get a better pic of the stamp and the handle later today.
David

 

And, looking again, I see the saws have different noses, square and rounded. But we know that detail may have been altered over time.

 

Hi Fred,

Here are some better pics of my Groves & Sons saw. I agree with you that the arriss is more apparent in the actual handling of the saw, than can be seen in a photo.

The die stamp is more elaborate than yours seems to be, but yours could have just worn away. There are 3 crowns surrounding "Groves & Sons / Cast Steel / Warranted" although only two appear in the image here. And to the right of the right hand crown it says "Spring Temper / Sheffield"

It's always been a favorite.

David

 

Nice saws Fred, David,

Looks early. I generally associate those tapered nose and London Flat handles as early saws. They are early handle design features shown in Smith's Key c1812 (although Smith shows the "U" notch on the top of the handle to be a wider U than on your saw)
[Of course I've heard a dissenting opinion, that the simpler shape and no medallion split nuts is indicative of a cheaper manufacture, for second class late 1800s saws. This doesn't seem applicable to your handle which is so carefully arrissed]

I have a couple of similarly arrissed saws with a defined ridge running along the middle of the handle top, a Robt Sorby and a Spear&Jackson, both medallioned and guesstimated at 1860-90 vintage. And others of my saws with equally deeply chamfered tops, but with the crest more rounded than ridged, seem to date from late 1800s right back to an early Wragg Long & Co of c1830. Seems to make this a not-very-good dating characteristic. (Interestingly, none of my backsaw handles seem to have the tops chamfered/arrissed , but a couple of old keyhole saws have their "U" notch deeply chamfered )

 

Hi both of you,

To start off with David, your Groves is a lovely saw, and I do like the addition of "Spring Temper".

I think that my mark differs from yours in that under Groves and Sons on mine is "Sheffield". You are right in that other features could have been worn, or even ground away, but I am inclined to believe that in the absence of even the hint of anther mark, that there may not have been one there.

I also take your point Kiwi about later three screw, London flat cheapies and had this not been a Groves that would have been my first thought. My second and contradictory thought would have been, as you surmise, the arrissed handle. That would not have been put on a later cheapie, Groves or otherwise and so I went for earlier rather than later.

Now, I don't know how handles were made in the late 1820's through to the late thirties, but I would be tempted to say that the chamfer stop/beak/hook are hand carved. Unless of course it is the nigh on 200 years of usage and weathering that has that particular effect.

Fred