Atkin and sons saw

Dear all,
After three traumatic days of not being able to upload to this site and suffering severe depression as a result, I am now able to bring you down from the sublime (all these Kenyons and Groves) to the ridiculous (my steel backed Atkin).

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=340
(I prefer doing it the old way).

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=337

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=336

If you Google Atkin and Sons you get a lot about planes and not much about saws. The National Archive (UK) has Atkin and Sons Ltd. as a Birmingham manufacturer operating between 1858 and 1947. As far as the "Ltd." goes this will be about right as the Limited Liabilities Act was passed in 1855.

However, If you go to that august body, the Western Cape Woodturners Association, you will find that Atkin and Sons operated from 1839 to 1966. (At least as far as planes go and that they are mentioned in Goodman's book "Planemakers from 1700) Perhaps the same Goodman that has been bandied around in recent topics?

Now for the $64,000 question, "How old is it"? Well on the face of it if they are Atkin and Sons and do not have the "Limited", then they are pre 1858. But this pre-supposes that they changed their stamp as soon as they became a Limited company - which of course they may not have done for a variety of reasons including that of expense.

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=338

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=339

Saws wouldn't be so much fun if there were't so many caveats about their provenance would they?

Any ideas or any more info on Atkin?

Fred

 

Hi all.

I am not sure that the name Sheffield works was particularly trying to emmulate Sheffield, more just a Brummie thing using place names. The King Dick spanners were made at Abingdon works ( Abingdon a town in Oxfordshire)
The Address Barford Road refers to a small town near Warwick. Lots of twon names in the road in the middle of Birmingham, Bromsgrove St, Pershore st, Worcester st. All the main Roads east and south of the centre are town named, Bristol St. Alcester Road, Pershore Road, Stratford Road, Warwick Road, Coventry Road.

May be of interest to somebody!!!!!!!!!

Lovely to see a nice Birmingham made saw.
Atkins and Son only marked planes as such, even after they were limited. I cannot recall seeing any tool marked Atkins and son Ltd.

Graham

 

There was certainly a tradition in the nailmakers around Bromsgrove and the Black country of brewing theri own beer. This seemed to extend to blacksmiths. Most tools makers would have followed on from Blacksmithing traditions. The point was nailmakers in the 18th centuary worked froma forge attached to the house. Many blacksmiths developed form these nailmaking families. It was very hot work and needed a lot of liquid intake to replace sweat. Water sources were often polluted so by brewing beer the process made a clean safe drink. It was very weak beer so a lot could be consumed. Anybody with a bit of initiative produced more than they needed. In the very early directories 1818 for example they are often beersellers, by 1840 some become publicans. I guess the ones with a bit more initiative were the ones who were more skilled so became tool makers. I am guessing also that the wife probably did the beer making and could earn more for the family that way. Also Birmingham, in particular, was badly hit by the ups and downs of the economy, very bad when the Napolionic war ended ( A lot of gun making etc)

Back to Atkins saws. If you look at their adverts the factory in Rea St South looks very grand. Looking on my map of 1902 there is no location for a huge factory. There are several factory blocks shown amongst the terrace houses, but sadly none is marked with any clues.

A company called Alan Godfrey maps, who have a website, sell very good copies of maps around 1900, on a good scale for spotting factories, sometimes the factory is named, sometimes it states "Tool Factory" etc. Sometimes just blank. It may be a source of additional information for researching a particular manufacturer. The big advantage of these maps is they are fairly cheap, less than £3 per map.

Graham

 

Atkin Saw

Fred,

As an aside from the other side of the pond, I recently bid successfully on the following dovetail saw as it was already in Canada (where I live) and the brass back and handle looked very interesting as I do not have any open tote saws. It also has an Atkins and Sons mark.

http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx344/beletuen/Tools/Saws/AtkinsDovetailSawSheffieldWorks.jpg

http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx344/beletuen/Tools/Saws/AtkinsDovetailSawSheffieldWorks2.jpg

I am curious how old it is and I look forward to a more detailed examination when it arrives. A pity that someone added a rivet to the handle but I guess it adds character. The US sawmaker E.C. Atkins had a Sheffield Saw Works in the late 19th century and this could be an example of his early work. However, given the brass back it could also be of English manufacture, though it doesn't seem to fit any of the Atkin makers noted by Ray earlier in this thread.

The brass back is marked Cast Steel, Atkins & Sons, Sheffield S Works. It is also stamped C & M 1865 but I suspect this to be an owners mark. The blade is 9" long.

I am curious as to who the maker was, particularly whether he was E.C. Atkins, and approx when this saw was made.

Erik

 

Ray,

The saw arrived about 10 min before I left for the airport but I got a quick look at the back and confirmed that it reads "Atkin and Sons" in an arch over "Sheffield Works" so that answers my question as to where it came from. Definitely English but from when? I will post better photos in a month when I return home. Nice little saw.

 

Ray, Fred,

Thanks for the additional info, I will certainly post some better photos in Dec once I am home.

Erik

 

Atkin and Atkins

I am new to the Backsaw and this is my first post. I found this old thread discussion about Atkin and Sons. I would like to determine if there is some family or business relationship between EC Atkins of Indianapolis, Indiana and Atkin And Sons in Birmingham England.

My grandfather and my great grandfather were both saw makers and both worked at EC Atikns in Indianapolis from 1870 to the 1940's. In 1872 EC Atkins himself travelled to England to gain more knowledge in saw making. My great grandfather also went back to England and lived for 8 years from 1872 until 1881 in Brimingham within walking distance of Atkin And Sons. My grandfather returned to Indianapolis in 1881 and worked for EC Atkins until he died in 1920. I might be jumping to conclusions but it is possible that my great grandfather and EC Atkins travelled together.

Anyway, if anyone has historical knowledge about these two companies I would appreciate your responses.

 

Hi,

I cannot help you directly, whereas some who use this site may be able to, but I can direct you to a forum that I found when researching a saw that I bought. If you follow the link below

http://www.birminghamforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5166.11

and return to the home page, there are plenty of subject headings that you may be able to place a post under. If you want information about Birmingham then this looks like the place to get it.

Fred

 

Fred
Thanks for your suggestion on the Birmingham England forum. I will give it a try.

If anyone else has information regarding a business or family relationship between Atkin and Sons Birmingham England and EC Atkins Indianapolis, IN USA I would appreciate your comments.

George

 

Hello Erik and everyone else,

I don't know whether this is about Atkin, Atkins or neither as the saw I am going to put on is a Taylor Brothers (minus the lamb).

If you go back to this topic and Erik's post number 5, you will see that he put a link to his saw which has on it C and M 1865.

Now, as it happens I have just been outbid on a Taylor Brothers saw on (U.K.) Ebay and which has on the back C and M 1866 and which I find interesting to say the least. Are we talking cats and pigeons here? And if so, who is being put amongst whom? (Also the person who bought it really wanted the saw as I put what I thought was an extremely generous bid on, and I still didn't get it.)

So we have Erik's saw which may be an Atkins (Indianapolis) with the same suppliers mark as a home grown Taylor Brothers (sans lamb). This does not make sense to me at all as it would mean that one of the saws had to traverse the Atlantic to be supplied by C and M (wherever and whoever they may be) and then retrace its steps to be bought in either England or Canada.

{If C and M are in Canada/USA then Erik's saw would be supplied in Canada/USA and would remain in North America, whereas the English Taylor Brothers would (should) have to travel to North America to be supplied by them and then return to England to be sold today. (I know that there is a long time gap but I can cope with that) }

{The opposite applies if C and M are in England/U.K. The Atkins would then have to travel to the U.K. and then re-cross the Atlantic back to Canada/USA}. That is, of course unless C and M were international suppliers and had outlets on both continents. ( I think that they must be suppliers now and not owners).

That is of course unless the Atkins - Sheffied Saw Works (USA - Indianapolis) is somehow related to Atkin - Sheffield Works (U.K. - Birmingham).

It is currently as clear as mud to me and if you feel the same way, then blame Ray who set me thinking with his post no.14 this topic, third paragraph.

Sorry for that Ray.

And the question still remains, why no lamb on the Taylor Brothers saw?

Fred

 

Dear Atkinsguy,
My Great and Great grand father also worked for E.C. Atkins in the late 1800's. My Great grand Father W.D. Quinn was the son of the foreman in the hammering department at Atkins.
W.D. Quinn learned to hammer saws and sharpening while at Atkins, and in 1903 he moved to St. Louis, Mo. to start his own saw business. I am 4th generation of the Quinn family, an my 2 sons are working in the business today.
When I saw your post I also wondered if our Grand parents might have crossed paths. We were E.C. Atkins distributors up until the time they went out of business.
Here is a look at our shop as it is today http://www.youtube.com/user/QuinnSaw?feature=mhee
We still hammer saws the old fashion way, but the sharpening is all automatic.
Thanks.
Bill Zickel
President
W.D. Quinn Saw Co.
www.quinnsaw.com

 

Bill
Thanks for your post. Yes, it is possible that our great grandfathers knew each other in Indianapolis. My great grandfather George Hollins Sr worked at EC Atkins from 1870 to 1915. He had a son George Hollins Jr who worked at EC Atkins from 1900 until the 1940's.
George

 

George, my cell #314-504-6640
home #314-428-0213
call any time. Bill