I bought this Backsaw today at Toronto's tool show, because it had a couple of intriguing features. Its a 12" open handled brass backed saw, stamped on the spine with "A Rosling, Sheffield" a name that I didn't seem to have in my HSMOB book. Also, the medallion is a Warranted Superior eagle, with a different style of eagle than I have on any of my other UK saws. (other WS medallions discussed in previous post "Martin & Warranted Superior" from August ) After a bit of internet searching, I've found that "A Rosling" is one of the trade names used by Beardshaw & Son (1901 White's directory entry listed TMs; A Rosling, Charles Callow, Stevens, Conqueror, and Chi Dura Vince. Most of these are also shown in the "Trademarks on Base-Metal Tableware" entry for Beardshaw) The medallion seems original to the saw (the scratch lines on the medallion edges match the orientation on those on the adjacent screw, and the split nuts are not burred from removal/replacement) Questions; Any ideas on the time period for Beardshaw's use of the "A Rosling" trade mark ? Any other experience/comments in finding this style (or other unusual styles) of eagle on Warranted Superior medallions ?
I don't think there is any documented use of the A Rosling TM (or any reason I've heard for the firm adopting it). The US style medallion on Sheffield saws is quite often found (surprisingly enough, usually in N America). (If I was any good at the technology I'd send examples - sorry) PS Ray: please can you help - will send them separately Hi All, here are the pictures Simon is referring to.. Ray EDIT: This first one is a W & S Butcher
Hello Kiwi, Simon and all, This topic begs a series of questions which are probably not answerable but which I am going to ask in any case. What is the mechanism by which an American medallion got onto an English saw? Was the medallion manufactured in England or America? If in England, was the saw sent out assembled with the blade attached to the handle? I remember Simon remarking about one of Joe's very early saws that the handles and blades were sent out separately and hence some of the rather home-grown fixings for them. Now these fixings are definitely not home-grown and if they were sent out assembled then it is reasonable to assume that the medallion was made in England. If the saws were sent unassembled, then it is possible (probable?) that the medallion is manufactured in America. Now HSMOB has Beardshaw and Son from 1825 to 1895 and Beardshaw and Son Ltd from 1895 to 1911. I don't know about the medallions, but it is unlikely that split nuts were used to assemble saws in America after the various "improved" fixings came into force, unless the split nuts came with the saws from England, or the saw was exported out there pre "improved" fixing. So, if the fixings are English they could have gone out there any time up to 1911. If the fixings are American it is unlikely that the saw is later than the mid 1870's (going by Disston's usage of fixings in any case). This is a bit of a ramble I know but I think that it comes down to the question of whether there is any record of American style warranted superior medallions being made in this country. It would be interesting if we did make them. Fred I should really look before I commit myself to print. I have just noticed that the saw has cast.steel on it and which if it is the English usage is likely to make it quite an early one. If it has been put on in accordance with the North American usage it could really be anytime up to the late 19th century. Even more puzzling and interesting as Kiwi found Rosling in White's 1901 directory. Is it an early saw, therefore or were Beardshaws pandering to the the American form of nomenclature around the turn of the century as well as providing the medallion?
Hi All, I've posted Simon's pictures in the relevant message. I always thought that warranted superior medallions with eagles were American, obviously an incorrect assumption. The more I learn and discover about saws and saw making firms, the more it seems that they were a canny lot, tailoring their product to the market in all sorts of subtle ways.. marketting, maybe it was always thus. The eagle on kiwi's A. Rosling looks a bit like the eagle on the WK & C Peace Ltd, in the sense that the head is down and to the left (the eagle's left). The other curious thing is that the arrows on the Ibbotson, and the Peace are in the dexter (right) talon, rather than the sinister (left) talon. I have read previously that this has some significance in that it might indicate a warlike attitude. Quoting:- "Some early U.S. Army colours, such as the National Standard of the 1st Regiment, dating from the 1790s, show the eagle reversed from that in the Great Seal of the United States, in that the arrows are in the eagle\'s right talon, and the olive branch in the left talon on the flag. I had heard the speculation that this was because the colour was a war flag, and therefore the emblem of war (arrows) took precedence over the emblem of peace (olive branch). I have never seen any contemporary evidence for this theory. In addition to the flags, a friend has studied U.S. silver coins for this period, and that up to 1807 the eagles were in the same configuration. Devereaux Cannon, 15 November 1999" from:- http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us^ar.html Always multiple layers of meaning... Regards Ray
Thanks for all the interesting eagles Simon, (& Ray). And now Ray informs me that I'm surrounded by zillions of sinister American warranted superior eagles (unless perhaps they're left handed eagles ?) Since at least a couple of UK sawmakers used the eagle logo in their medallions, and lots of the early saw factories in North America employed workers (and owners) who'd emigrated from the UK saw industry, it seems quite possible that the eagle type WS medallion was first developed in the UK and the idea transported across the Atlantic. [ The English "Lion & Unicorn" coat of arms was also copied and used on medallions by some North American sawmakers e.g. J Flint, and Shurly & Dietrich ] On the Rosling saw, I think it probable that the medallion was UK made, although as Fred points out it may have been specifically desgned for the North American market. I don't think this is an early saw; my WAG would be that it was made about 1900, as it doesn't show the dints scuffs and aging marks that my old saws have.
another WS Interesting thread, as usual! I think that the ramifications of manufacturing and marketing across the Atlantic are almost endless, bearing in mind the factors mentioned. I am fairly sure that at least some medallions were designed, made and fixed in America, as there is an Ibbotson Bros backsaw which passed to Bill Carter (mentioned by Peter Evans, I think) with an amazingly beautiful medallion that in my opinion might show German [New York or Pennsylvania area???]decorative influences - it's certainly not like any Sheffield-made medallion that I've seen.