Adapted Drabble and Sanderson. What did the handle look like?

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by fred0325, Dec 10, 2010.

  1. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hello all,

    I got this saw very recently and even on the not overly good photo, it was clear that the handle had been chopped. The question is:- "Was it a London Flat originally that someone has flattened even further or was it a conventional closed pattern handle"? Does anyone have a photo or drawing out there that would show this pattern handle as it originally was?

    This got me thinking!!!! In taking the bottom off the handle the user probably gained a bit more usable blade, thus prolonging the life of the saw. Could this have been a (the) reason for the development of the London Flat - to maximise the usable blade depth? I know generally speaking that the cheeks on London Pattern handles were deep, but the flattened handle did not add anymore overall depth to them.

    I attach with the Drabble saw photos, a photo of my Groves and a later S+J.
    The Groves is the only London pattern handle that I have got with the flat horizontal and virtually parallel to the blade edge. This shows little or no blade wastage. If you look at the S+J there is probably half an inch of blade that is rendered less usable by the depth of the lower ogee. How many extra sharpenings/recuttings can you get out of 1/2 inch depth at 11 points per lateral inch?

    Forgive me if this is the sort of thing that is known amongst you who know about saws, and is blindingly obvious. To me at the moment most things are new. Also apologies for the first photograph. I didn't realise that it was so out of focus.

    Fred
     

    Attached Files:

  2. lui

    lui Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    77
    Hi Fred,

    It could be that the owner needed to use the saw on a cut longer than the saw, with it's reducede blade depth he may have needed to remove part of the handle. A bit like a stairs saw, but without the depth control.

    I know, clutching a straws, but it's one possibility.

    I don't know much about london pattern handles, but I suspect that it is not to gain extra saw depth, as there are lots of big hand saws with this style handle and no need for the extra depth.

    When did london patterns start? and I know this might be a silly question but was it more prevelent from the london makers?

    What gets me thinking is that I have a D&S with a "London" stamp not Sheffeild, this is assumed to be a quality mark, could the handle style follow a similar vane?

    Sorry no real answears only more questions.

    cheers

    lui
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  3. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hi Lui,

    I'd never thought about doing a cut longer than the blade. Mainly because my own woodworking efforts have never involved this. The wood would have to be over 12" wide as this is the length of the blade from the toe to the front of the cheek. Perhaps we shall never know unless someone who reads this has actually done this and has reasons for it.

    The thing about the London flat interests me as well.I don't know when they first came in, but from reading some of the topics on this site, they were certainly there around the turn of the 18th/19th centuries and I presume before. But what I have noticed is that the flat handles that are horizontal/parallel with the blade appear to be earlier than those flat handles that have a marked front to back slope on them.

    I have a Garlick which I am going to put on here at some stage with a flat base, angled slightly upwards. This must be 1870's at the earliest. So, did they start out horizontal and then incline as fashions and other handles around them changed? Most of my later saws with flat bases have differing degrees of incline on them and none are as early as the older Groves.

    Once again, anyone any ideas.

    Fred
     
  4. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    376
    Hey Fred et al
    Sorry I haven't replied to this earlier but it took a while to get some pics of this Drabble and Sanderson saw. Everything has a blue haze unfortunately and I think this has to do with a lot of snow reflection. I usually like taking the pics outside. Will have to wait till May at this rate with the amount falling now but anyways.....
    You said you were interested in seeing some handles and this is the only Drabble and Sanderson back saw I have. It is a 14" brass back with the Drabble and Sanderson Sheffield Warranted Cast Steel punched into the brass back. It seems it was made for Edwards, Bay and Rye of Swindon. Someone with a little more info might tell us if they were merchants at some time in Swindon and give us an idea of the dates. This wild QS beech handel has three split brass nuts like yours but doesn't have the Flat London pattern
    as yours has. To have truncated mine like yours probably would have removed too much of the bottom end. It wouldn't have survived long with such a thin bottom section if any at all. I think yours always had a flat like the London pattern saws and maybe someone has one to help you with. The previous owner of yours really did a number on the toe as well and Lui might be onto something when he said it was probably used for a specific purpose because I can't see someone messing up jointing for a filing that bad. Too much work and effort to cut that much off.
    anyways here are some pics
    Joe S
     

    Attached Files:

  5. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    Hi Fred,

    I agree with Joe and Lui, I think the handle has been modified for some special purpose, but can't think what that purpose might be.

    One of the important drivers in the evolution of tools is the re-purposing of existing tools. By that I mean, when a job comes along that needs a special tool of some sort, the first step is often to modify an existing tool.

    I'm intrigued by the possibility of studying the angle of London flat handles with respect to the tooth line. A lot of work has been done on hang angles, that is the angle between the line of the hand with respect to the tooth line. Maybe a similar study could be made of the angle of the flat for London pattern closed handles.

    Interesting,

    Regards
    Ray