Howel carcass/sash/tenon saws?

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by shoarthing, Oct 11, 2021 at 10:47 AM.

  1. shoarthing

    shoarthing Active Member

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    Backsawyers; may I consult your eye & memory, please?

    While indulging in a few weeks of archive-diving; focused on Joseph Howell & J V Hill . . . I was reminded of one very marked difference between their two businesses: the apparent physical absence of Howel(l) tenon/sash/carcase-saws in the record: can you call any to mind?
     
  2. Dusty Shed Dweller

    Dusty Shed Dweller Most Valued Member

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    I'm not sure exactly what information you're seeking but I've cleaned up a lot of Hill LATE Howell saws, including hand and back saws. In fact, I'd just about call them relatively common c.f. other one 1840s saw. They are typical of their time. Saws only marked Howell are older and less common. There's a fair write up in BSSM on this partnership/arrangement. I have a chisel marked J. V. Hill so he must have produced under his own name for a while.
     
  3. shoarthing

    shoarthing Active Member

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    Dusty Shed Dweller - Hi - apologies my request was unclear, & thank you for the opportunity to make it most exact:

    Q: has anyone seen/seen an image of a carcase-saw, sash-saw, or tenon-saw made by Joseph Howell, of London, & so marked: “HOWEL” or “HOWELL”?

    . . . if so, can they share it, please?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021 at 11:23 AM
  4. kiwi

    kiwi Most Valued Member

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  5. shoarthing

    shoarthing Active Member

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    . . . thank you for reminding me of this enviably lovely Howell; Functionally, by its fortunate owner’s account, it looks a perfect carcase saw . . . . and its unusual length was perhaps the maximum for a happy balance in the hand with such a hang angle.. . . . & the remaining depth to such a delightfully thin plate in such an obviously long-used tool is, well, remarkable.

    So, yes, likely made as a carcase-saw. (Edit: . . . tho’ if so, since re-toothed much finer).

    I really had in mind closed-handle backsaws, & should have made that more clear.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021 at 1:53 PM
  6. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Active Member

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    Hi I have a couple of photos of what could be very early Howel and I picked up two Howel saws a few months back and one was closed handle 13” and looks like it came from the factory at that length.

    As far as the Howel closed handle saws go the handle is exactly the same as a Hill late Howel saw. The earliest Hill saws the I Hill with no sun had a thicker handle.

    There was a 10” steel back Howel in the David Stanley auction last month so they are still out there and do come up for sale.


    Peter
     

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    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021 at 4:43 AM
  7. shoarthing

    shoarthing Active Member

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    Peter - Hi - thank you for sharing the above images of this nicely-radius’d: J Howel

    May I trouble you for images of the 13” closed-handle Howell, please?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021 at 7:19 AM
  8. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Active Member

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    Here is a photo of the 13” Howel with a 14” I Hill late Howel no sun for comparison. Sit them on top of each other and handles are the same outside shape. The horns on the Howel are thinner and I like that look but the distance between the horns on both handles is the same so the Howel handle is more suitable for someone with large hands.

    I bought 2 Howel saws for £30 plus shipping to Oz and at this stage I’m not sure what I’ll do with this Howel, the saw plate needs replacing and do I repair or replace the handle. The brass backs on the Howel are not as thick as a Hill late Howel so the cutout at the top of the cheek is to big to use as a replacement. But a handle off a steel back Hill late Howel will fit and I have one but it’s lived a hard life.

    The split nuts on the Hill late Howel saw still need to be filed down and they can be made to look factory and here are 2 photos of a 10” I Hill late Howel

    Peter
     

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  9. shoarthing

    shoarthing Active Member

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    Peter - Hi - thank you, most kind of you to share this helpful image of the 13” closed-handle Howel. Interesting to have your observations on the thickness of the (subtly tapered?) back. The stamp looks to be “HOWEL” - yes? It would be helpful to see images of that & of the other side of the handle.

    Oh! One last question: in your judgement is/was the sawplate on the 13” closed handle Howel of 25thou/0.6mm steel, or more like 20thou/0.5mm?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021 at 6:55 AM
  10. Peter Armstrong

    Peter Armstrong Active Member

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    Yes it’s a Howel and I measured both ends of the saw plate and it’s 30 thou at the toe and 25 thou at the heel. But I find with these old saws when you pull the plate out of the brass back and I can measure the clean steel that was under the back it’s thicker.

    Peter