Factored Ward & Payne

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by Dusty Shed Dweller, May 17, 2020.

  1. Dusty Shed Dweller

    Dusty Shed Dweller Most Valued Member

    According to sources such as BSSM, W&P saws were factored, and with all these things the issue is always "by whom?" This example is very interesting because it backs up Simon's musings on factoring, such as Disston putting out No. 7s etched for Matheson & Sons, Glasgow. When I saw this example, I thought I've seen this before...US maker, deep style etch, cherry wood handle, open slot handle at the top, curved heel, lurid orange lacquer, the style of wheat carving...

    Fancy etch of a sailing ship. The most interesting part is right at the bottom, near the teeth.


    Yep, it says "made in U.S.A"


    The W&P is on the right, the saw on the left is a Simonds '72', which was a top shelf product at the time (ca. 1910-1920) and fitting of a high end tool company like W&P. Although not a dead ringer, the style of cut out alone makes me suspect that Simond's was the ultimate source of this saw.

  2. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Hi Dusty,

    Interesting bit of detective work, and an insight into how interwoven some of the saw trade was back then. Both examples look to be in excellent shape.

    I think that around that time Disston was also shipping saw plate and medallions from their Canadian factory to be assembled in Australia. Globalization is hardly a new thing. :)

  3. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

    Hey Dusty.
    Great saw and etch. I have always been fond of the tools put out by Ward and Payne and this of course peaked my interest. My first reaction to the etch was it was a Taylor Bros. or Peace etch but then you pointed out the "made in USA". I looked at the etch and wondered if the "made in USA" was placed on after just because of the variation in size of the lettering. Might be just my eyes. I can't think of any American saw makers who were as ornate in their designs as this particular example. Hard to see if the boat is sporting an American flag also. Cut blanks, etch and send to the US for final factoring? The shape is sort of similar with the cut out but that was a popular style in the early 20th century. It is also marked that it was Sheffield ENGLAND so this also indicates is post 1900. You might be correct in assuming Simond's was the manufacturer.
    Dusty, I am also curious why you thought the handle was Cherry a relative rare wood used or advertised on saw handles, where apple was the preferred choice. Fruit tree anyways.
    Enjoy that saw
    Joe S.
  4. Dusty Shed Dweller

    Dusty Shed Dweller Most Valued Member

    Joe, my speciality is the saws of EC Atkins and Co, and I will admit that I am much less familiar with the lesser known of the four sawyers of the saw apocalypse, Bishop and Simonds.

    This Ward and Payne is very similar to the three Simonds I have immediate access too, and the WS medallion even has a US style federal eagle on it. It is not one of Disston's usually WS knock offs. The wood is not apple, it's paler and less streaky, and after processing three cubic metres of cherry recently I reckon it's a candidate for a match. Atkins only used cherry for one model, Simond's and Bishop used it extensively. Orange lacquer is not something either Disston or Atkins used and the rounded heel treatment also excludes those manufacturers. Simonds prominently, and deeply etched their saws and were quite fancy c.f. the other makers, and nature of the etch just comes down to the transfers. I agree that it does look like an English style transfer, but they could have sent a bundle off to be used elsewhere (Simon discusses this in BSSM). I believe this was of US manufacture, and almost certainly not Disston or Atkins. However, where it was assembled is a good question.