Can anybody identify this saw?

Hi Steve,

Welcome to the forum, that's a nice looking saw you've got.

Not much luck finding the maker as yet, I've checked all the usual resources and not managed to find anything.

There was a London/Manchester based engineering firm Thomas Neal,



That image is from http://www.gracesguide.co.uk

So far as I can tell, they specialized in grinders, for coffee and other stuff.
Most unlikely to have ever made saws.

Nothing in HSMOB..

Geoffrey Tweedale's directory of Sheffield Cutlers, lists a John Neal who worked in Jessop Street as a horn cutter and presser. He was a Methodist reform preacher and town councillor.

Jessop Street was home to some saw making firms, One of the Davenport firms was located there around that time.

The German Steel mark and heavily canted blade, combined with the relatively simple makers mark are sometimes pointers to an early 1800's date... in the case of this saw, I'm not quite so confident..

Regards
Ray

 

Don McConnell posted a reply in the parallel thread on sawmill creek. Which I'll repost here, with his permission.

Hi Steve,

The T. Neal marking may well relate to Theodore Neal, as noted by Simon Barley on another forum. I, too, found an 1889 Somerset Directory listing for him, but it indicates he had two locations in Yeovil rather than Taunton:

"Neal Theodore (late Cox & Son), general and furnishing ironmonger, agricultural implement agent, cutlery, lock, nail, tool, bedsteads, perambulators, stoves, guns, ammunition & oil & color warehouse, 28 Middle st. & 20 Vicarage st. [Yeovil]" In the trades listings, he is included under "Tool Merchants."

I have additionally found information that he took over the Cox & Son ironmongery firm, at 28 Middle Street, due to debt, on August 31, 1888. Additionally, "T. Neal" is listed as a creditor to a Yeovil builder on December 16, 1891. So it appears he continued in business as Theodore Neal until that time, at least. Sometime between then and 1897, he took on Charles Williams as a partner, and the business continued under the name of Neal & Williams, at 26 Middle Street and 20 Vicarage Street, until, at least, 1914. Though by the latter date, the operation had scaled back to the Middle Street address only.

So, if your saw was marked "T. Neal" for sale by this firm, it's most likely dates of manufacture would be from 1888 to 1891 ... possibly as late as 1896.

As to the German Steel marking, that almost certainly refers to what is also known as "Shear Steel."

Prior to the development of the cementation process, one of the methods of producing steel was to remelt cast iron, which has a carbon content of about 4%, in a finery furnace then burning carbon out by blowing air through it. The difficulty with this approach was knowing when to stop the process so as to retain adequate carbon. And, of course, this difficulty was exacerbated because the steel makers didn't understand the role of carbon. However, as K. C. Barraclough says (in _Sheffield Steel_, 1976):

" ... Nevertheless a process had been developed in Austria whereby, after almost completing the finery process, some fresh cast-iron was introduced and worked into the metal; with a bit of luck the forged product would harden on quenching and thus they had managed to produce steel. Such was the material imported into Sheffield in the seventeenth century; it came in via the Rhine valley and therefore became known as 'German Steel' (or even 'Cullen Steel' since it passed through Cologne on its journey here)."

But that is not the whole story. Cementation (blister) steel was first developed around 1600 (also in Germany) and this process began to be established in parts of England by mid-seventeenth century. Then, around the end of the 17th century, the making of shear steel was introduced into the Newcastle area by William Bertram. This involved selecting bars of blister steel for the intended usage (through a fracture test), cutting them into shorter lengths, bundling them together, then hot forging them into an ingot. As Barraclough states (_Steelmaking Before Bessemer_, 1984):

"... Bertram had built up a reputation for quality in this way; since he was a German, it seems to have been accepted that he had produced the true German steel - this presumably is where the later confusion between German steel and shear steel arose."

(Incidentally, Bertram's mark was a stamp showing crossed shear blades.)

This is borne out by later sources. The diary of a Mr. Hatchett, who visited a Sheffield steel making operation in 1796, briefly described the cementation process, then added: "To form what is called German Steel the Blistered Bar Steel is forged under hammers and reduced even occasionally (as for watchmakers etc.) to the size of one eighth of an inch square."

Obviously, he left out the steps of cutting the bars to shorter lengths and bundling the pieces before hot forging into an ingot, but this description makes it clear that blister steel was used in producing "German Steel." (Incidentally, blister steel bars were subsequently refined under tilt hammers or rolled, which later came to be known as "common steel.")

While some confusion continued, a number of late 18th and early 19th century sources (including _The Edinburgh Magazine_, 1798, _The Encyclopedia Britannica_, 1823, _The Universal Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, and Literature_, 1819, _The Emporium of Arts and Sciences_, 1813, and Charles Holtzapffel's _Turning & Mechanical Manipulation_, 1846) treat it as a given that the terms shear steel and German steel were interchangeable. By this time, cementation and crucible steel making was in full swing in Sheffield, so I think it unlikely that much, if any, of the original German steel was being imported into England for making saws and edge tools.

Hope this has been of some help.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR