Wm Greaves & Sons x2

Hello all,

I recently came across several VERY rusty saws sitting in an old barrel. While looking through them, I spotted two Sheffield saws stamped Wm Greaves and Sons. One was a 12-inch open handle backsaw and the other a 28-inch hand saw. I did some cleaning of them but did not want to sand too much.

Both saws have the same stamp: WMGREAVES&SONS (smaller underlined capital M) arched over a crown and SHEFFIELD arched under the crown. IMPROVED CAST-STEEL in two lines to the right side of the name stamp.

The 28-inch saw had no medallion (the medallion in the accompanying photos is a temporary one I added), in fact only one of the screws was intact.

With no mention of Sheaf Works in the stamp of either saw (I realize the indication could be on the missing medallion), is there a basis for speculation of the manufacture date of these saws?

Thanks,
Joe

P.S. I tried several times to upload photos and for some reason they will not upload. So hopefully you can see them at the following URLs:
http://m9.i.pbase.com/o9/97/783397/1/156858609.Ovm1ux3Z.IMG_4176.JPG
http://m2.i.pbase.com/o9/97/783397/1/156858612.w2hhZQco.IMG_4182.JPG
http://m0.i.pbase.com/o9/97/783397/1/156858610.3d6Ugtne.IMG_4179.JPG

 

Great--thanks, Ray!

Joe

 

Hi Joe,

Lovely saws, even more lovely marks (cast (dot) and cast (hyphen)

William Greaves though I am still confused about. For a start, and surprisingly, he is not in HSMOB.

I think that they were manufacturer's/merchants from about the mid 1820's to the 1850's but, and it is a big but, their mark continued into the 20th century.

"I can trace William Greaves and Sons back to Gell 1825 and forward to Whites 1849 ( and from which I have shown the excerpt below). They are not there in Whites 1856 as such but there is a reference to Eyre, Ward and Co, late Wm. Greaves and Sons. They seem to have made most things except saws, but obviously exported them."

From my Slack Sellars and Grayson's thread here

http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&t=205

And from the same thread, from Kiwi

"W Greaves & Sons" trademark was sold to Thomas Turton & Sons, who included edge tools in their products and remained in business well into the 1900s
Seems possible to me that TT&S used the WG&S name to export saws in the 1870/80 time period, and that they got SS&G saws from SS&Co (or maybe purchased a load of NOS SS&G saws) and had them produced with the WG&S medallion for export"

Having said all this, your saws having cast Dot and Hyphen should put them both back into the late 1820's/very early 1830's. A (my) problem here, however is that I don't associate the handle design of your handsaw with a saw this early.

This may mean that it has had a replacement handle, or, a pet but completely unproven (even unindicated) theory of mine is that, as Disston used both these markings (Dot + Hyphen)from the 1850's onwards I wonder whether such markings may have been added to later export saws in order to conform to Disston's sometime markings?

It would be interesting to know if you have had the handle off and if so whether the screw holes indicate that it is original to the blade or not. If it is original, it may support my "later saw" theory.

I wish that I came across barrels with saws like that in them. When I come across a rusty collection it is almost invariably later Disston's/generic and unnamed Warranted Superiors.

Fred

 

Hi Fred,

A closer look at the handsaw reveals a couple of reasons to suspect the handle may not be the original one.

As this photo shows, there is some brighter metal visible in front of the handle which makes me think perhaps it might have been covered by an earlier handle. (note: I am attempting to add image tags per Ray's advice but am also including URLs in case the images do not appear)



http://m7.i.pbase.com/o9/97/783397/1/156869387.NDBI72nY.wg_4184.jpg

As this photo shows, one of the screw holes in the handle does align with the corresponding screw hole in the saw plate.



http://m8.i.pbase.com/o9/97/783397/1/156869388.7nJOM6nk.wg_4192.jpg

Regarding handle style, I think too that it does not seem to fit the likely date of the saw. Interestingly, I found another rusty Sheffield saw (coincidentally also in a barrel--a different one) this past weekend that also seems to have a handle of an unusual shape. This was is a J & I Taylor 26-inch German Steel hand saw. I will attach a couple photos of it as well.



http://m2.i.pbase.com/o9/97/783397/1/156869392.xBPJT0NH.jit_4200.jpg



http://m8.i.pbase.com/o9/97/783397/1/156869398.VAelDzRN.jit_4198.jpg

Thanks,

Joe

 

Hi Joe,

Unless the hole with the missing screw has been drilled out (a possibility), I don't think that that particular hole has ever taken, or was designed to take the square shank of a split nut. Even if the shank for some reason has spun to make the square hole round, it probably would not have made one as sharp and symmetrical as that.

The other two screws look to be misfits as well.

I don't know when Americans started using the Eagle W/S medallions, but it would have to be a very early one to say the least to be native to a late 1820's British saw. But William Greaves is such an oddball to me re saws that I wouldn't put any trick past him if if meant that his exported ones sold well.

On looking at the Disstonian Institute site, there seem to be no medallions on saws pre about 1845/6. Would this be about when they were introduced?

I am coming down on the aside of a later handle, which is good for the date of your blade, but not for my Disston cast dot/hyphen theory.

Never mind.

Fred

 

Hi Fred,

Put your mind to rest regarding the medallion. That is one I had laying around and placed there to fill the void and help attach the handle which only had one intact screw. Oh, one of the screws is a substitute also.

I know--that doesn't help your Disston cast dot/hyphen theory either, but it perhaps helps to understand this saw. I am tending to believe the plate is the only original part.

Oh, and the hole in the plate with the missing screw is actually partially off the plate--just catching the edge of it.

Joe