Hi All,

As raised by Graham in an earlier thread..

Here is an experimental timeline, I know there isn't much data of value there just yet, but I'm interested in what people think of the format.

http://www.backsaw.net/timeline

Is it something I should persevere with?

If you have features that you would like added to the timeline, reply in this thread. I'll make this thread sticky, so it stays at the top of the list.

Regards
Ray

Hi Ray,

The Limited Liabilities Act appeared in 1855 (I think, going from memory). Now I know that many companies did not go "limited" until the late 1800's/early 1900's but it is a cut off point.

Would it also be possible to do "advisory" timelines which are useful but have to be taken cautiously, such as the introduction of larger diameter saw screws, (poss. even larger diameter medallions if that is a valid notion)) the introduction of 3 fixings on quality products ( secondary ones are a problem here), the phasing out of London Pattern cheeks as opposed to flat handles, the usage of the term London/London Spring as a quality mark as opposed to a location and a timeline for the usage of German Steel and its quality implications.

I know that some of these are not easy to sort out, but if they are included with sufficient caveats, then they may be useful pointers as opposed to the relative "absolutes" already provided. A contradiction in terms I know.

Hope this helps and does not provide too much work or grief.

Fred.

Hi Fred,

The idea's haven't quite gelled yet, but I'm thinking that a seperate timeline for each region might be appropriate, there is a clear enough timeline for Disston that could at least provide a model for extending to other makers in other regions.

For example there is a style emerging which I will call 18th Century "Birmingham" as illustrated by the Barnard and Dallaway saws Joe has posted.

It's a work in progress... I'm playing around with colours and grouping events to try and put related events and features together.

No sure how to display the number and size of screws. Still working on it..

Regarding the usage of the "CAST.STEEL" mark, (note the dot) I'm using an earlier comment by Simon that this feature appeared before 1830, and not after. But when was the first "CAST STEEL" mark used?

Also, the timeline link now appears on the menu bar at the top of the page. Might make it easier to navigate.

Regards
Ray

Well done Ray. I think this is a superb start. I thought I knew quite a lot, but there are terms here I was not aware of, names of patents etc,

Would it possible to produce a list of terminology with a photo to explain the feature? Paricularly or new members and visitors.
As an additonal thought, for example medallions, I have not yet got very far into these, but from the styles there is obviously a progression over time, so initially if there was a photo of an early medallion then a bit later one then a late one. Anyone could then look at their saw and say it has an early medallion so they can judge the approximate date.

I know from the discussions that handle shape evolved, but I am not clear what the progress was and over what time scale.

Just rambling as thoughts come to me, so use any thing which makes sense and ignore most of it!!!!

The book (HMSOB is it?) distinguishes 2 screws as earlier than 3 and later 4 and 5. Of course quality come into play too. Is there a first date known for 3 and 4 and 5 screws?

Again well done and I hope this progresses a long way, it ought to.

Graham

Hi Graham,

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated.

I already have some information embedded into the timeline, if you click on, for example, the blue dot next to Glover's patent the little pop-up balloon has a brief description, but if you look at the double underlined title in the balloon, and click on that, it will take you to Wiktor's web site with full details of the patent.

Some of the other dot and bars have images embedded in the "balloons"

As time goes by, I will get the hang of how to program the timeline features.

One thing I'm stumped on is how to show things like number of screws.

Regards
Ray

Is there an earliest date known for 3,4 and 5 screws?
I do not think a latest date can be applied as lower grade saws have often had two screws.

I did not think to click to find links, sorry

Graham

Hi Graham,

I've been looking at your gallery, you have some excellent information. Early books and catalogues are in lots of ways more reliable sources than saws themselves.

I'll scan the Smith's Key saw page and post it. for comparison.

Regarding number of screws, the actual number used varied depending on the quality and length of the saw, longer saws often had more screws.
Lower quality saws often had less.

4 screws probably later than 1820, 5 screws on handsaws tends to be late 19th early 20th century.

There is also, a general trend to larger diameter screws. That would work in conjunction with the number and type of screws.

Regards
Ray

Hey Ray et al
I can only add a well done to you on this time line graph.
My 2 cents might be the difficulty in doing a regional time line as you pointed out Ray. I would think saws were being made in many locations and as Simon points out not many in places we thought a lot were made like Scotland. It was an assembly area except for two true saw makers. Are the criteria for this line based on significant changes in style or one particular companies significance in the numbers of saws they made and how it impacted a region. Would the time line then open up to London, Norwich, Leeds and North American manufactures? I think the line might be unwieldy in this area.
Great stuff though.
Joe S

I salute the efforts of Ray and the others to contribute to this thread - THE difficult one!
My own research is so Sheffield based that I sometimes fear I am overly biased.
The big problems are:
1. No saw makers' business documents are known from any place other than Sheffield (and there are precious few there), although the online Tyzack family history (good, but many inaccuracies) shows that the Tyzacks of London did make their own saws, as did a few other London makers like JVHill, Fitchew, Copley and Fletcher.
2. Catalogues are a big help, but as we know, dealers used engravings from others' catalogues, overprinting them with their own name. After about 1880 Disston made big inroads into the British retail saw market, and some catalogues, eg William Marples, listed Disston saws, not always making clear that they were.
3. Styles changed gradually, and in different places at different times and different rates; I find this point the hardest to accommodate to clear time lines.
4. Dating is sometimes easier if there is a retailer's name as well as the maker's, as the retailer often, but by no means always, had a shorter period of activity than the maker. But (and every statement about saw dating seems to attract a but) - a maker could be bought up and his name continued on a secondary line, as his sales in a particular geographical area could have held up well, even though the overall business had failed.
5. Sheffield was in the 19th century called "One great workshop", so that even though firms were named and situated in different parts of the town, there was enormous overlap, factoring and outworking. Smaller makers could fill up orders for the big guys who couldn't meet a deadline - and vice versa. Saw handle makers were distinct businesses, as were saw screw makers, mark makers, etching transfer printers, steel makers, grinders, tilters and rollers, and each of these could again be making for many different firms over the years, and putting on their own distinctive look. The town was constantly alive with hundreds of hand carts taking part made goods from one shop to another, usually without any written documentation (in the early days many craftsmen couldn't read or write). Some idea of what it was like can be found in Ashley Iles' "Memories of a Sheffield Tool Maker" - he started in about 1950.

So (and I hate to sound dampening, or know-all - please excuse me if I feel a bit defeated by this task!) I personally am still searching for good ways to construct these time lines. I'll look forward to reading others' efforts, and I'm sure I'll learn a lot from them
Best wishes Simon

Hi Simon Joe, All,

No doubt it seems well nigh impossible..

I suspect that if I was to buy 100 saws at random off ebay and ask anyone on this forum to assign each saw to a century, that is to say is it 18th 19th 20th century? I suspect that most of us would get it better than 75% right.

What exactly are we all seeing?

The first thing we would look for is a mark of some kind, and see if it's a known maker, then look at the handle shape, and style. The type of screws would probably be the next indicator, followed by the size and number.

I think all of us can already do this, and get within +-50 years, or at least within a general era. With better than 50:50 success rate. The more saws we see on these forums the more we learn and while there will always be multiple exceptions, (there are always more exceptions than rules it seems).

Sometimes the exceptions are the interesting ones.

The first few pages of HSMOB has a sort of timeline of features, that could stand a little critical scrutiny and updating, I think that's a good place to start.

Will it ever be an exact science, I doubt it. But it's fun to discuss.
Every saw has it's own unique story to tell. I think that's the part of all this that I like the best.

Regards
Ray