Unidentified saws. Any ideas as to make

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by fred0325, Feb 8, 2010.

  1. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    1,084
    I recently bought 19 handsaws (mainly Disstons, one \"proper\" but damaged Harvey Peace, one Atkins, one oldish Spear and Jackson, a couple of Robert Sorbys and a few unidentified ones) as a job lot. I will put some of the marginally more interesting ones on as time goes by, but these two intrigue me, particularly Saw 1. (Please go to my gallery to see the pictures as I haven\'t got the hang of putting them in the text.)
    Saw one (I suspect) has a bit of age to it. The patina on the handle is to die for and overall it is in not bad condition for the sort of saw I normally get my hands on. The interesting bit is in the rivets. The obvious downside is that they have been grossly overcleaned and judging by the scour marks on them, with rough emery paper. Also judging from the direction of the marks and the lack of similar marks on the handle, the rivets have been off for cleaning. Also the large central one and one of the others are standing slightly proud of the handle - another indication that they have been off and have not re-seated properly.
    This sets a few alarm bells ringing that they may not be the right rivets for the saw. The large rivet in particular is interesting as this the approximate size of, and is in a position where a 1\" medallion would be. My hope is that it should be blank and that someone has not ground the details off a medallion and replaced it. Also if you look round the edge of the large rivet, you will see a slight circular indent. I have a Spear and Jackson bought in the same lot that has a medallion with a collar to it - the collar being about the same size as the indent on this saw.
    Anyway after all this has anyone any thoughts on the saw or comments on my ramblings.
    Saw 2 is what it is. The handle is tiny but the blade is thick - 1.08mm compared with 0.89mm for saw 1. (Take this measurement with a pinch of salt as my electronic calipers are not the best). Also the rivets have blank heads both sides which is new to me, but then again most things re. saws are new to me. The handle on this is so small that I find it uncomfortable to hold. Forgive my ignorance and naivity, but could you buy the same blade with handles to suit different sized hands.
    Thanks for bearing with me. Any comments appreciated.
     
  2. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    671
    Hi Fred,

    I have been looking at those two handsaws on and off, and nothing comes to mind, The one with the smallish handle, the handle might not be original to the blade, but in any event the style of the screws/rivets, would lead me to think it\'s 1900\'s, the other one with the 4 screws and blank medallion I think we might be able to identify it by the handle shape and screw location. It looks to be earlier than the other one.


    Regards
    Ray
     
  3. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Sorry to mess you around with this saw. I should probably have cleaned it earlier, but the grease on it must have been on for 30 years judging by its hardness, and I really dislike cleaning saw blades because , as in this case, I have had to remove the patina from the centre of the blade quite extensively in order to get what is visible here. This leaves an area on an original albeit rusty and stained blade which stands out like a sore thumb.
    Having said that what\'s done is done and there is the partial lettering of what I assume is the word Brooksbank, although looking at it in the photograph the letter spacings after the first \"o\" do not seem right unless there is an insert between the \"o\"s.
    I also had a go at the rivets and the word \"patent\" appeared with a dot in the centre at the bottom. There are shadows of other detail on the blade, but none that come out on photographs and none that I can make any sense of.
    Can anyone think of an alternative to Brooksbank or has any comment on the rivets- possibly similar ones on other saws. Thanks for your interest

    Fred
     
  4. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    Hi Fred,

    That might just about do it.

    Abraham Brooksbank & Co Malinda St Sheffield

    1849 through 1859, and 1862 to 1931 (&Co) at the Malinda Works Malinda Street

    Numerous trade directory entries throughout that period, for all sorts of edge tools, hammers, steel converters and so on. I was hoping to find an advert, but nothing so far.

    At the time of the 1864 Flood he identified himself as a file and steel manufacturer, his claim details
    are here .. http://www2.shu.ac.uk/sfca/claimDetails.cfm?claim=4-3738

    By 1937 they appear to have reverted to the file business, their 1937 British Industries Fair entry is under Files...

    http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/wiki/Brooksbank_(Files)

    * 1937 Listed Exhibitor - British Industries Fair. Crucible Alloyed aircraft and Mining Steels, Files and Rasps, Joiners\' Woodworking Tools. (Stand Nos. A.531 and A.430)

    Also they appear to have moved to Mowbray Street (Lion Works) at some time prior to 1937.

    Back to the Rivet, I have seen these before (somewhere) and I think they are a non - removable type.
    I will dig around and see what come to mind.

    Regards
    Ray
     
  5. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Re the remaining unidentified Saw 1. On my wanderings through the various tool websites I came across something called www.oldtoolphotos.com.

    If anyone is interested in visiting this site and goes to the Saws category you will see towards the bottom of the page a series of photographs of a saw made by Wheatman and Smith. This looks suspiciously like my saw, even down to the small clip on the lower ogee.

    All the more interesting is the reference to Glasgow on the blade of a Sheffield made saw, as I live quite close to Glasgow. The blade on my saw has had all its detail erased, but I would like to think that it came from the same Glasgow source as the one on the oldtools website.

    FRED.
     
  6. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    Hi Fred,

    Certainly looks like it. I will have a look and see what I can find, on Wheatman and Smith.

    My fathers family came originally (back in the 1890\'s) from Renfrewshire, which is not far from Glasgow.

    Regards
    Ray
     
  7. TobyC

    TobyC Most Valued Member

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    Just a question, isn't Abraham Brooksbank the same as Abram Brooksbank? Maker of straight razors and knives.(and other edge tools)

    [​IMG]
    Brooksbank Abram & Co. Malinda Street

    [​IMG]

    Toby
     
  8. TobyC

    TobyC Most Valued Member

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    216
    The indent around the large screw head (I think you called it a rivet) looks more like damage from someone trying to hold it with pliers or something, to keep it from spinning. I don't think that is for a Spear and Jackson type ring.

    [​IMG]

    Toby
     
  9. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hi Toby,

    You are right re Abraham and Abram. The selfsame person I presume.

    Under some circumstances you could put it down to the vaguaries of C 19th spelling but in this instance there may be a little more to it. Prior to Genesis 17.5, the person that we now know as Abraham was called Abram and so both are formal biblical names. I quote directly from the annotations of the New Jerusalem Bible "Abram and Abraham, it seems, are in fact two dialectical forms of the same name, meaning 'he is great by reason of his father, he is of noble descent' ". Here, however, Abraham is interpreted on the strength of its assonance with ab hamon, 'father of a multitude'. And which of course Abraham was promised on the acceptance of the Covenant.

    But I accept that interesting though this may be, it does not explain why two different forms of the same name, however justified, should be attributed to the same person.

    Is there anyone out there familiar enough with Jewish culture to offer an explanantion of the post biblical usage of both names.

    Otherwise it remains, as do many things surrounding saws, a mystery.

    Fred
     
  10. kiwi

    kiwi Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    355
    Perhaps just a nickname or an abbreviation in this case. Quicker and cheaper to write Abram instead of Abraham. (was he ever actually listed as "Abraham" Brooksbank ? )

    (Robert Sorby is listed as "Robert" or "Robt" in different trade directories, and generally "Robt" on saws. Kiwi is not actually My legal name ....)
     
  11. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hi Kiwi,

    You are probably right. In Whites 1879 there is what I presume to be the home address of Abraham Brooksbank at Moor Lodge on Newbould Lane on p. 253 whereas on p.313 there is Abram Brooksbank at Malinda Street. The few previous directories that I have looked at all have Abram. So the Abraham could well have been a spelling error or, as you say Abram - an abbreviation.

    A swift and clinical use of Ockham's Razor. It was so sharp I didn't feel a thing:)

    Fred
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012