Straw, London

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by kiwi, Oct 5, 2014.

  1. kiwi

    kiwi Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    355
    Another rusty relic found this week, and presented here as a data point.

    Blade stamp is "STRAW" over "LONDON" (there also seems to be some remnants of lettering to the right of the main stamp that I can't decipher, possibly "BEST....??")
    [MSMOB has a William Straw in London 1827-1852]

    26" blade, 5-1/2 ppi increased to 6-1/2 ppi for the end 3" at the toe.

    Blade is taper ground from heel to toe, (which would help balance), but it doesn't have appreciable thickness taper from toothline to back, (which means adequate tooth set has to be provided to prevent binding).

    Split nut screw heads are all graded in diameter from top to bottom (1/2" dia to 5/8" dia), with corresponding sized nuts (for aesthetics ? ) This seems to to me to be more common on older saws, although usually just the nose screw is smaller.

    The nose of the handle tapers, (not hooked), and the top of the handle has a wide "U" notch, features I like to see as it seems to denote an old saw (usually)

    The top horn is missing and its nub and adjacent parts of the handle top are worn smooth by use (I'm guessing by a lot of two handed overhand grip ripsawing)
    straw.jpg straw2.jpg
     
  2. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    1,084
    Hi Kiwi,

    You have pipped me to the post in putting a Straw, London up here. I should have a backsaw coming to me this very minute by wing'd messenger (AKA the Royal Mail).

    BSSM has a little more than HSMOB on this one, starting with Alex Straw 1832 to 1857; Peter Straw and Co. from 1811 onwards (no finish date) and two William Straws at different and varied addresses from1825 to 1878 and 1870 to 1882.

    So perm any 1 from 4. (Did you ever do the football pools. Perm any 8 from 10??)

    There are also 2 handsaw marks amongst the 7 displayed. I am sure that if you asked Simon nicely he would put them up for you, but the nearest to yours is:-

    Straw
    London Spring
    *

    Yours sounds like it is "Best Steel" and so would have been a good saw in its day.

    None of his marks have an ascription of before 1870 and 5 of them have dates of 1900+, which is 20 years later than his last recorded maker. I know that it is possible but it is still a bit curious.

    Lots of options, no answers. Sorry about that.

    Fred

    I have just looked at your photo properly and you have quite a shallow return (indent) going from the nose down to the handle and this, coupled with "Best" would put it for me as an earlier expensive saw rather than a later cheapie. Although on the downside the handle style overall does look later (post 1860/70).

    Anyway I would still wag it as pre 1860 and possibly quite a bit earlier.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
  3. Barleys

    Barleys Most Valued Member

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    546
    Several features of a London hand saw of the last quarter of the 19th century here, I think – the three screw London pattern handle I've come to think of as quite a give-away, combined with the rather laconic marking, usually just the maker's surname and the word London. The Sheffield trades (not just saws) were not, unfortunately, as truthful with their descriptions as one might hope, and the word "Best" was often applied to the lowest quality items... It's pretty unusual to see any extra wording on London hand saws of this period, so whether it actually is best might be me making yet another mistake.
    But I'd be v surprised if it was pre-1860.
     
  4. kiwi

    kiwi Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    355
    Thanks for the replies,

    Fred; Don't let my poor saw example stop you from posting pictures of your Straw saw !

    Simon; I agree this saw is likely later 1800s
    [I do like that this handle shape retains several (but only some) of the old features shown in the Smith's Key illustrations of early 1800s saws; the tapered nose, wide "U" notch top, London flat base, all of which seem to be revised on the "first line" 4 screw saws of later 1800s. (And the graduated sizing of my saw's screws is a nice touch)]
    I'll have another attempt at deciphering the extra lettering, which could be completely different from "best...", maybe its an address?

    And Joe suggested I look in the archives (I have no excuse for not doing this earlier), where I found more information at http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/straw-london.125/
     
  5. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hello all.

    This is my Straw offering. It is a brass backed backsaw with a very heavy, chunky, square cut back.

    BSSM has a mark similar to mine (the words are the same but the asterisk - for want of a better description - is below "London Spring" whereas mine is in between the words). The date for this mark, albeit on a handsaw, is put at 1900. And I am not going to argue this.

    My saw bears little resemblance to Joe's which I am sure is substantially earlier.

    I am not particularly enamoured with the back, it is too chunky for me, but what I do like is what passes as a chamfer. I have never knowingly seen one like it before. And I like anything that says "London Spring".

    The first 3 images are of my saw. The next three are of a saw currently for sale, the images of which I have snaffled and put up here for good measure.

    Straw London 003.jpg Straw London 006.jpg Straw London 010.jpg straw full saw.JPG straw ws spring.JPG straw ws.JPG

    Fred
     
  6. greyhound

    greyhound Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    47
    Following this discussion and for references, I though I should post some picts of another STRAW, stamped HOLBOURN, rather that LONDON. The saw is 12" carcase and looks like quite early example but I might be wrong.
    Thanks
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  7. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    First the bad news. The mark on your "Straw" looks suspiciously like many of the marks which may or may not be attributed in BSSM to William Straw, with a "Straw Hoxton" mark much like yours put at about 1870.

    The good news is (or may be) that the nearest place to Holbourn ( I cannot find this spelling on Google maps as a London address, the current spelling is Holborn) where a Straw is recorded as working is Saffron Hill, and said Straw was producing saw round about 1811.

    I wouldn't get too excited about this yet, as this is where Fred's second law of saw collecting kicks in - "I should be so lucky".

    Fred

    Edit. I don't think that "Holbourn" would have been put on a saw this early (1811-ish). But the spelling on its own makes it quirky.

    Further Edit. Things are getting complicated. I did a search of when Holborn might have been spelt Holbourn and I get references from the 1700's up to the current era, although the modern references seem to refer to "High Holbourn". viz "High Holbourn, London, WC1V 7AA." being, on google maps well within the current area described as Holborn:confused:

    Also another entry - " In 1899 the company bought the adjoining building of 88 High Holbourn, London"

    So, is the modern usage of Holbourn reserved solely for usage in conjunction with "High", with Holbourn on its own being used as an archaic spelling of the general area now known as Holborn

    If this is the case and the stamp on your Straw is not an abbreviation of "High Holbourn", you may well have:-

    a) a spelling mistake
    or
    b) an early saw a la the Saffron Hill variety.

    Examples of Holbourn only.

    An electronic edition of John Strype's (1721 I think-Fred)

    A SURVEY OF THE CITIES OF London and Westminster

    Leather lane, of a great length, the South end coming out of Holbourn, and passing by Grevil street, Beauchamp street, Doddington street, Baldwin's Gardens, and Perpole lane, on the West side; and Charles street, Cross street, and Hatton Wall, on the East side; runs Northwards as far as Liquor pond street. The East side of this Lane is best built, having all Brick Houses; and behind them several Yards for Stables and Coach Houses, which belong to the Houses in Hatton street. Page 255. Large type mine here and below.

    and

    THE LONDON MAGAZINE ENLARGES AND IMPROVED. VOLUME THE SECOND, FOR ...
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wroPAAAAQAAJ
    1784
    John Rowsell, of St. Andrew, Holbourn, London, money, scrivener. John Millett, ol Wilsden, in Middlesex, dealer in horses. John Read, Peter -Read, and Robert ...


    Someone who is not going into this blind, as I am, please help me out.

    Fred


     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
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  8. greyhound

    greyhound Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    47
    Thank you, Fred
    I also searched the internet but could not find anything related too this saw, whole load of people with Holbourn name and some Holborn/Holborn in London references as well.
    When I posted pictures of this saw, I though it might be helpful to have a reference to another "Straw" which is different from those above...
    It looks old (older then any other saw I've handled) and I am very happy with this purchase. Will keep searching, perhaps will find a ref one day.

    S
     
  9. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Sorry,

    One last go on Holborn/Holbourn.

    I tried looking through Histortical Directories to see if there was ever an official name change in the spelling.

    It appears that there wasn't. The results of the search are as follows-:

    Post Office 1808 Holbourn 0 - Holborn 182
    Post Office 1852 Holbourn 0 - Holborn 1052
    Post Office 1882 Holbourn 0 - Holborn 827
    Post office 1914 Holbourn 0 - Holborn 249 (This seems a bit low, but that is the result that came up).
    Neither do I understand why there are no Holbourns at all in London in the 1800's, particularly as there is evidence for one as late as 1784.

    Unfortunately neither is there a Straw in Holborn in 1808 - at least that I can find.

    I am therefore completely lost and give up.

    What you have is either a later alternative spelling of the place, or, a late 18th century saw. I do hope that it is the latter, but I fear not.

    Fred
     
  10. greyhound

    greyhound Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    47
    Fred,
    Thank you once more for your diligent research

    I contacted the seller of this saw and he was ok with me share his comments: "...found the saw quite by chance, really, when hunting for old moulding planes and tools here in rural Gloucestershire... ...picked up some Buck, Church Street, London planes at the same time...", "...the planes would have been made in the late 1820s/early 1830s a similar time-frame as the saw, so it seems highly likely...". He also sent a link to the John Stow’s book (pub. 1720) "A survey of the cities of London and Westminster" where Holborn is spelt as Holbourn. Apparently (Wiki) the district of London - Holborn - was created in 1855, if I understood it correctly. I guess, the saw might be older then the district of London (khe-khe-khe) - not with my luck...
    Here is the link he sent me, quite an interesting reading, this book...
    https://www.hrionline.ac.uk/strype/TransformServlet?page=book3_252

    In any case, it is a nice looking saw and a wonderful discovery of the London's history...
    Thanks again,
    S
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  11. Barleys

    Barleys Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    546
    I think the answer here may be that the earliest address (1811) for William Straw (Saffron Hill) would have lain in the parish of Holborn, the spelling of Holbourn being entirely within the compass of variations that spelling of the period could entertain. The Straw family moved east a mile or two in the next decade, so I wouldn't date this saw as much later than 1820, bearing in mind that mark punches were not always immediately changed when manufacturing addresses were changed. The earliest Straw saw yet – lucky greyhound!.

    EDIT: correction – Peter Straw, not William
     
  12. Dusty Shed Dweller

    Dusty Shed Dweller Most Valued Member

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    146
    A client's STRAW that needs to be documented on this thread. 14" RIP tenon. This one is STRAW GREENWICH.
     

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  13. shoarthing

    shoarthing Most Valued Member

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    109
    93C1AAB7-FA73-4844-AC6B-3501B046C56D.jpeg

    Relevant, I hope, to this thread:

    . . . . can those with better vision than I make out the ghostly stamp beneath? (there do not appear to be any other impressions on this back). Am unwilling to clean this further (non-abrasive means only, so far) . . .

    (Edit: stamp a bare 16mm wide to outside of dentition)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  14. David

    David Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    315
    London, perhaps? After clicking to enlarge, I see what may be the bottoms of the L, the first O, nothing for the N, and the bottom of the D.
     
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  15. shoarthing

    shoarthing Most Valued Member

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    109
    David - Hi - thank you . . . . yes . . . now you confirm the suspicion, it does seem the most likely: . . . . despite an inference from the thread so far that other STRAW saws appear to be marked with a specific London locale in which Peter Straw or his kin were known to reside/work: viz. “HOXTON”, “HOLBOURN” or “GREENWICH” (when South of the River from the late 1830s) . . . . tho’ I cannot recall one marked “WHITECHAPEL” (for the early-1820s onwards Peter & William Straw business(es) adjacent Leman Street/ Goodman’s Field). Mind you, there’s a saw being auctioned now marked:

    0EE05A13-3750-49C7-A131-8B1F0BCB210B.jpeg



    . . . which might perhaps be the style of marking for a saw sold through the Whitechapel premises.

    My 13 1/2” sash saw has a rather different style to it, on top of the distinctive sawtooth-edge stamp: it’s one of those racy “London Longhorn” sash saws.

    (Edit - removed some blather)
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2022
  16. Underthedirt

    Underthedirt Most Valued Member

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    225
    Absolutely gorgeous! Thanks for sharing this old battler
     
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