Saw Medallions

Agree that the beaver/Groves is not like the usual Moses Eadon, and is not like any Sheffield maker's that I've seen in having a patent date on it - can we say that that is a N American feature only?

The other difficulty is that medallions can be added - or subtracted - at any time by any body.

 

here's an interesting old Marshes and Shepherd medallion, (likely pre-1850 according to the www )
picture from http://www.sydnassloot.com/s18.htm

 

Thanks Kiwi. This is a clearer image than the one I had on the medallion guide website, so I used it as a replacement.

 

Thought I would add one:

 

Hi Bob,

I cannot see this on your list and to be honest I don't normally take much notice of Mathieson's so i don't know how common or otherwise they are.

Fred

 

Thanks Fred and Johnny.
Johnny, what does the wording say on your medallion?

Bob

 

I have no Idea, it's on a local auction site so not my saw. Looks like Bushman? I can also make out "Sweden" but the rest is a mystery to me.

 

Thanks Johnny. Indeed it does say Bushman. I've found this good information on the history of saw making in Sweden and other nordic countries. In addition to Bushman, the wording on the medallion says Edsbyns Industri AB, Edsbyn Sweden.

 

Hi Bob,

Kiwi recognised this one (these two).

They look like Taylor Brothers Guinea medallions.

I see that you also found the Symmons and Prince saw. I am not too sure that this is a medallion native to the saw, or indeed a saw medallion at all.

I have a feeling that it is a makers plate, possibly to be put on a lamp.

Along with the Guinea medallions I also attach an image of the retailers plate on my back door lock (circa 1880) to show you what I mean. They are not the same, but the similarities are there, including the centre rivet to hold the plate on.

However, it is probably worth leaving on, on the basis that I have been known to be wrong on many occasions.

Fred

 

Hi Fred,
You are probably right about the Prince & Symmons. I'll leave it on for now and try to do some more research on it.

The Guinea medallions are a wonderful find and have been added to the list. I wonder if the price of those saws will come down when they don't sell for L300.

Bob

 

Three Medallions

Hi all,
I am several years late to this thread, but it is only now that several items came together that prompted me to search Google and arrive here.
Three medallions that came together are as follows:
1. Panel saw made by American Saw Company for The Paris World Exposition 1867 with clear advertising etch and date of the patent etched on the blade. - The saw is from Joe in Canada.
2. A. Rosling saw medallion posted here by kiwi. The saw found in Canada.
3. Taylor & Son medallion posted here by dyounmoses - I don't know what kind of saw it is and where it was found.

As you can see, the design of this medallion is almost identical. The differences are so minor that I am tempted to consider one source of manufacturing of these medallions. The differences would come from modified design for specific customer.

If this observation is correct, it would be at least some indication that some medallions were made in Sheffield and sold to US. There are other questions that I have, related to the issue of early Amercan medallions, but I will hold on these to keep this topic clear.

Your observation and comments will be very helpful.
Thanks much, Wiktor

 

Interesting idea Wictor,
While it is quite feasible that British made medallions were sold to USA sawmakers, by the 1840s the american industrial system was quite capable of producing their own designs, (or copies of foreign designs), and the punative tax structure for trade between UK and USA would seem to me to make it more likely that american made medallions would be used on the USA made saws as they could probably be made more cheaply locally for the US market.

So my guess is for locally made medallions on US made saws (completely unsupported by any actual facts)

The eagle was a popular choice for medallions, with Peace in the UK and Disston in the USA also using versions of the a "heads down" eagle.
The common american "heads up" (or "Federal" ) eagle used by many USA sawmakers was also used by Beardshaw of the UK, (possibly expressly for export to the USA market). The medallions may have been made in the UK, or they could have been fitted to the saws after arrival in the USA. (I think it unlikely that american made eagle medallions would be used for Beardshaw saws sold locally in the UK. Are Beardshaw eagle medallions found in the UK ??).

So for imported saws in the USA, I think its possible that local medallions could have been used instead of imported medallions, although I think this was likely rare (again, only a wild guess)

Different case for Canada, where the tax structure was more favourable for imports from the UK, and the Canadian industrial base was less developed than in the USA, so importing those English crest medallions used by J Flint's saw works in St Catherines Ontario might have been economically sensible.

 

Thanks kiwi for your comments. I agree with your general comments on medallion production in US and on different routes of using medallions by exporting companies, etc.
However, I am interested in this specific medallion and especially in similarity of its design. Since it is from different saws and different countries, my question is - How did it happen?
Did Taylors made this design and sold medallions with it to Beardshaw? And then to some American companies? Was there a medallions-making house that used this design and modified it accordingly to the customer? Does anybody has a lead on medallion production houses from that era in UK? For that matter, does anybody has an access to a material for medallion production houses in US as well?
The similarity of these three medallions is striking to me and leads me to believe that it came from one production house...

 

A rather belated remark about the Guinea saw - it was one of Taylor Brothers' cheaper (yes, cheaper!) lines - note the handle is untongued, a sign of a second quality tool. But a wonderful marketing ploy, and they made a great many of them, in hand as well as backsaw versions.

Coca Cola have nothing on 19th cent saw makers.

 

A reply to Wiktor (welcome from me, too, Wiktor)

Medallion manufacture is a completely undocumented procedure, as far as I know. It's speculative that they were produced by die stamping, and were a product of specialist firms in the brass trades, but only one Sheffield firm is known to me, and that only by name, as a producer of medallions (their trade mark was Warranted Superior, so they weren't great on inventiveness!).
I've looked closely at the minutiae of the design of some W/S medallions, and find tiny differences, like the differences on the three Eagle medallions that Wiktor shows, so I don't think one can say that they were all by the same firm, unless the firm had to renew its dies - which of course they would have done, but we can't know at what intervals. I would say fairly frequently, simply because the number of medallions produced must have run into tens if not hundreds of thousands annually. A comparable thing is the frequency with which Richard Groves changed the punch that produced their logo - the ornamental crown that appears alongside USE on their saws. I've charted at least 10 slightly different dimensions of these crowns over a period of 50 years or so.
Although Birmingham had a far bigger brass trade than Sheffield, very few B'ham (or London) saws had medallions, so whether Sheffield makers used Sheffield brass firms, or went to B'ham for them, again it's an unknown.
In one case I feel fairly sure that the medallion on a saw that was made for the US market was also made in the US, simply because (neck sticking out here...) it's not like any British medallion I've seen. Attached pic is from a 16inch saw for Ibbotson Brothers of about 1850, which was sold on US ebay a couple of years ago. It's 27mm diameter, at the upper limit of size even for a Sheffield handsaw.
Another way of producing a medallion design might be by casting, but I am doubtful that the necessary productivity could be achieved that way.
And the documentation of the Birmingham industries is very slight compared to Sheffield, where there is nothing that I have been able to find about the brass trades in the City Library Archives.

 

Simon, thanks for your comments.
On Medallion manufacture - I was able to gather some material in Sheffield directories that is well beyond information about PRIEST & CO. However, I need some time to organize this into readable format. I will post it here and on my website when it is ready. Probably within next 10 days or so. BTW, I found much more info on Sheffield saw screw makers than American makers in US.

On Three Medallions comment - Yes, I agree and suggested it myself that if they were made by one company, the dies would have to be different. Since every one of these medallions has only one element the same - the eagle - other elements would have to be incorporated into the design. Hence, minor differences, or minutia differences as you said, would be fully justifiable when making three new dies. Of course the sample I posted is too small to make any definite conclusions. We would have to see much larger representation of saws with these medallions to make any justifiable conclusion. The medallion on one of these, the American Saw Co.'s saw, is the first and only one I have seen on American saws.

On Ibbotson Brothers - I am posting three medallions that I have here. One is of course very similar to yours, posted above. All three are a snips from eBay saws and they are not in my possession.

One interesting point on Ibottsons office in New York. I spent considerable time on studying their activities there. I could not find any information on their imports of saws to US or any detail of these activities. However, I found enough info on their involvement with Sing Sing prison. They were quite involved in production of files and saws at the prison and sales of these articles from their office. Of course I realize that this is only one aspect of their activities, I hope, in US. Although Geoff Tweedale was very encouraging and wanted to see this material posted as a part of his article he wrote on Ibbotsons for my website (see it here - http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUK/Ibbo...eWorks/01-Ibbotsons&GlobeWorks-history-01.asp) I was not ready at that time to do that. This material is actually a part of a larger project that I am still working on and hope to have it ready at the end of the year.
To advance further discussion: I am really curious where the notion of medallions made in US for English saws came from? I am not familiar with this at all...

 

I'm surprised Paul didn't add these.

Disston Disston, blades from Canada shipped to Oz and handles put on there.



And a Canada Disston (some Ozzie saws had this too)

 

Better.

 

Here are different versions of ones you already have; Eagle Saw Co., Harvey Peace, and Woodrough & McParlin. Sorry for the less-than-crisp image quality.

 

And three more that I believe are all new ones for the list. Bassett, Jarvis & Morris of New Haven CT, Wm. Toland of Baltimore (after leaving Philadelphia), and Welch & Griffiths of Boston. Welch & Griffiths used WS medallions for most of their time, but used this one during their last years in business.