Rogers and Sons

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by Joe S, Nov 13, 2010.

  1. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    376
    Rodgers and Sons

    Hey Ray et al
    I hope I can count on the wisdom of the group in identifying what has been a mystery to me for some time. As you will see from this saw and similar to Fred's saw of the previous post it is also missing the first two letters. (I am sorry I am unable Fred to offer any help on the **stone in your saw). I am assuming from the pics I have taken, that the **odgers and Sons is "Rodgers".
    The specifics on the saw include two fasteners that look like nails that have been hammered over and peined into previously made holes. The remnants of a brass nut can be seen on the reverse of the shapely early beech London pattern handle. The must have been brass fasteners that now only show the 3/8" vacancy. The well loved 24" blade sports a nib and a well rounded nose. The stamp has a crown over a **odgers and Sons, Sheffield, German Steel.
    So, my question to the group. Were "Rodgers and Sons" a secondary line for a larger manufacturer because my research doesn't show this company in the literature I have available and similar to the looks and the age of this saw. Was this saw a product of the great cutler firm of Joseph Rodgers and Sons who have been around since the 1680s and produced this as one of their many items?
    I hope someone can help out on this.
    Joe S.
     

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    Last edited: Nov 14, 2010
  2. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    Hi Joe,

    You are on a bit of a roll with another of these great looking saws.

    Inital searching didn't come up with a positive id. But looking at HSMOB, Don McConnell lists the following...

    Rodgers,Russell & Horsfield Sheffield 1847-1852 60 Eyre Lane

    Rodgers, William Newcastle 1827 Heath's Yard 12 Pilgrim Street

    I think we can rule out the Rodgers,Russell & Horsfield, and focus on the
    Newcastle William Rodgers.

    I managed to find the 1827 History, Directory & Gazetteer of Durham & Northumberland, with William Rodgers listing as a sawmaker.

    I think we are looking for a Rodgers & Sons possibly from Newcastle...

    I've searched Durham and Northumberland directories, but nothing so far.


    Regards
    Ray
     
  3. ilges71

    ilges71 Member

    Messages:
    22
    To me you are looking at an early saw. It is a good looking saw of some quality so having two holes only in the handle suggests an early date. Schaffer and McConnell suggest a German steel blade had a date up to 1820. By 1850 makers were etching blades not stamping. Also the front end of the blade is well rounded. An early trait. Putting all this together suggests a very early saw, pre 1800. The lower rivet and washer look original, so using Schaffer and McConells dates a rivet and round washer 1780onwards. At that sort of date the directories are not so helpful.

    Also the crown over the makers name is quoted in HSMOB as about 1800

    I'll be interested to see other people views

    The blade does appear to be marked Sheffield but Schaffer and McConnell clearly do not list this maker as their Rodgers companies are mid 1800s and later. I cannot see it being a Newcastle maker if it has Sheffield on the blade

    A very lucky find, with a remarkably clear stamping for the age. Well done for spotting it.

    Graham
     
  4. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    Hi Joe and Graham,

    I think you are right Graham, it does look pre 1800.

    The early sawmakers were often identified as cutlers, and that somewhat complicates the search. Since there are is no shortage of Rodgers working as cutlers and knife makers, scissor smiths..

    That is, until I re-read Simon's thesis, where he identifies one "William Rodgers" sawplater. Who worked for Wilson in 1769 in one of the Wilson ledger entries it is noted that he paid "William Rodgers" 5/10/3 for saws with the note: "Also paid piece rates per saw"

    Evidently William Rodgers was brought from Birmingham to work for Wilson making saws, and the ledger entries are terminated with the words "Run a Way" (evidently owing money to his employer!) , so perhaps he went back to Birmingham?

    So, I'm starting to think that "William Rodgers" is a possibility.. maybe as early as the 1770's depends when he brought his son into the business?

    Nice work Joe, very likely another 18th century find!

    Regards
    Ray
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2010
  5. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    376
    Rodgers and Sons

    Hey Ray et al
    Thank you very much for the insights and research on the saw. I have always suspected that it was an early saw and yet I had no evidence of the "Rodgers" in the usual reference materials. The shape and hardware evidence "screamed " early and this is why I suggested the Cutlery Rodgers connection. Interesting that he may have been a Birmingham "saw plater".
    Ray, I am unsure of the Wilson whom Simon references as having saws made for him by "William Rodgers". Was he a merchant who had saws farmed out? I am also curious what the 5/10/3 means. Was this considered a lot of money or a fair price wholesale? It might give an idea of the value of a panel saw at that time.
    Thanks again
    Joe
     
  6. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    Hi Joe,

    Joseph Wilson was a Sheffield entrepreneur whose saw making business (one of many and varied ventures during his fascinating career) operated from 1768 to 1775. The substantial archive of business records has been researched by Simon for his thesis, so Simon is really the one qualified to elaborate further.

    The 5/10/3 is 5 pounds 10 shillings and threepence, but my keyboard doesn't have the (pound) key...

    The connection between Joseph Wilson and William Rodgers is well documented with account entries detailing his saw making work for Wilson.

    So, what do we have... a gentleman called Rodgers making saws in Sheffield at about the right time for your saw... not quite definitive enough.

    What is missing is documentary evidence that he ever in fact started his own saw making business, he doesn't appear in the Sheffield Trade Directories of the period, and not mentioned elsewhere, this makes your saw particularily interesting.

    It's possible that this William Rodgers is not the maker of your saw, but he is so far the only candidate that meets all the circumstantial criteria, assuming that he did in fact go on to start a business, and subsequently bring his sons into the saw making business.


    Regards
    Ray
     
  7. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    Hi Joe,

    Just an additional thought, to add to the records...

    I wonder if the Newcastle "William Rodgers" is related to the "William Rodgers" who worked for Joseph Wilson?

    Regards
    Ray
     
  8. Barleys

    Barleys Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    546
    Rodgers & Sons

    This is a seriously beautiful saw, and I am deeply envious of Joe - it's a real thrill to see it. There are already a lot of useful comments on this thread, and I hope I can add a bit more - what I can't do is get to Sheffield to the library because we are snowed up in a village 15 miles away...
    I agree that this saw is probably about 1800-1820, mainly because of the handle, with two fasteners only and with a very narrow nose; the toe is less useful, because it can so easily have been altered post manufacture. The style of the struck mark is not pre-1800, I reckon, because I don't think anyone was using the term German steel before then (the struck words were Cast Steel, and the qualities of steel on other saws were "Best" and "Common" although I've not seen them struck on). Likewise the fasteners, which could have been put on any time after manufacture; Sheffield saws were often exported without handles, as it was easier to pack blades alone in one cask, and handles alone in another. Out in the wilds of the USA (excuse me) of 1800 saw screws could have been a rare commodity, unlike nails, and in any case could (as here) have been replaced at any time.
    Etching did come in in the 1840's, but struck marks continued to be used, mainly on common quality saws (cheaper to bash the blade with a punch than to fiddle about with a tissue paper transfer, and then acids and alkalis), although some makers (eg Wheatman and Smith) used them until at least 1900 on all their saws.
    As for who Rodgers was, as far as I'm concerned he has to be added to the ever-lenghthening list of the unidentified; if only Rodgers was not such a common name in Sheffield.... One candidate to rule out is I am sure the great cutler Joseph Rodgers; his firm is fairly well documented (see the second edition of Geoff Tweedale's book on Sheffield cutlers, self published and available on the lulu.com website) and they never did saws. There is no information as to what happened to the William R who Joseph Wilson hired to make saws for him in 1769, but I think he may be too early for Joe's saw. Another William R was a partner with Hawksworth, Wall and Cawton in about 1800 (reference unfortunately misplaced); there is no information about how long this firm lasted, but there is a saw marked just Hawksworth of about the same date as Joe's, so I suppose the partnership might have split up - they very often did - and Rodgers brought his sons in. As Ray says, another Rodgers (? forename) was in a partnership from 1845 with Russell and Horsfield, but unless he had a previous existence, as it were, I think he's probably too late, although he might be one of the "Sons" on this saw. I have no idea whether the Newcastle Rodgers made saws marked with his name - on balance I would guess not. The fact is that there really were a lot of saw makers before 1830 or so that we know nothing about, and it is certainly true that almost all their saws have disappeared, even though they made thousands ( Joseph Wilson sold over 6000 saws between 1768 and 1775, but I've seen only one with his mark).
    I don't think that firms had secondary lines as early as this - it's a post-1850 habit, when competition got too fierce, and makers had to think of tricks to increase sales.
    Crowns over the maker's name on blades reached their commonest in the 1870-1890 period (with one also each side of the name), but were etched on up to the second half of the 20th cent.
    £5/10/3 was a lot of money in 1770 - Wilson paid Rodgers well, at just over £1 a week.
    Will try and find out about other Rodgers when the snow clears! Simon Barley