New member

I'd like to introduce myself (first post here, though I've lurked for a pretty long time). My name is Tony Zaffuto, and I've got a saw problem. I recognize a few names from the other forums I visit (Woodnet, Sawmill Creek, etc.) and I'm also a member of the "Old Tools List".

The reason I'm writing my first post in the "saw maker's forum" is that I recently purchased some Foley equipment, with thoughts on making a few saws in the coming years. I wanted the Model 32 re-toother and the 5 carrier bars, but to get those, I had to also buy the Model 52 re-setter and Model 387 sharpener. Enough about those for a few weeks or months (until I learn some more about their workings).

A bit about my background: I own a manufacturing plant. We make parts from powdered metal, using high tonnage presses and sintering (baking) the parts to fuse the particles together. Most of our business is for primary automotive and virtually every car on the road today has parts in it we have made. One of the benefits of owning a plant like this, is that I have a very complete machine shop with machinists & a toolmaker at my disposal for "projects". At the shop I also have a brake, a shear and a variety of other metal forming tools.

Anyhow, that's about it for now!

T.Z.

 

Welcome to the "I had to also buy" Club TonyZ! *hehehe*

I think several of us are in that Club...you were spot on about the retoother, most everyone realizes that it's the gem...and it has several problems.

I know a better way can be done, would be nice to have some type of CNC controlled mill that could cut the teeth...just that the cost of doing so for saw teeth would be too costly.

Glad to see you around, I think your one of the few people on the inet I may not have p.o.'d...

I have a few questions and/or ideas I'd like to float by, as in the past...

How many ratchets did you get?

That is where the value is. The carriers can be made easily. But the ratchets cannot. Actually you may have the means to make the ratchets. I don't have the proper tooling but my horizontal mill can most likely cut the ratchets with the proper cutter.

But therein lies all the problems with Foley gear as well, it's all a pile a crap... Even after you go to the trouble to get all the ratchets, you end up with a pile of crap at the end of the day...

There's a better mousetrap out there...IMO.

I don't use many public foras these days, but remember you well.

 

How you been Alan?

I've been "lurking" here for quite some time, but since I got the Foley equipment, I decided to register. I still post on the other woodworking forums, but for the past few years, they've gotten pretty repetitive--same old discussions on best way to cut dovetails or what new tool is the best ever!

I got 5 ratchet bars and 4 carriers. The carriers would be a piece of cake to make, the ratchets a bit harder, but not much. I have 3 CNC machining centers, but no CNC mill, although I have a couple of manual mills. I've been toying with the idea of making some floats, and these ratchet bars would be no more difficult, except a bit longer.


The equipment I got was owned by a machinist who died unexpectedly 20 years ago. His son has just recently decided to clean out the shop (I can identify with that--my Dad died in 2004 and I have yet to clean out his tools accumulated as a life long carpenter). I've already re-toothed a panel saw as a learning experiment, although I neglected to adjust the pawl to limit the ratchet adjusting to each notch. So, I ended up with a 5-1/2 point crosscut! Other than that, the re-toother is pretty simple. Later tonight, when I'm back in the shop, I'll adjust the pawl for single spacing. I really don't know if I'll fool around with the setter or filer.

I suppose I'll have to pick up some brass to play around with folding some backs on my brake, and while I'm getting the brass, I suppose I'll get some flat stock for some saw plates. My wife just shakes her head! I explained that to use a tool, you have to know how to make it! Plus there are far worse things to do with my spare time!

T.Z.

 

Pretty good, haven't made any saws in a while, but am in the process of making a couple carcass saws with a 14" .020" plate, 3" deep. I think this style saw is one of the most practical for much of the joinery I do. I have a pair of joiner's saws I use for most of my joinery work, but they are 2" deep (1 3/4" actual). Those are 13" blades. I have many saws but hope to have a full quiver of my own handcrafted saws some day.

I do agree about the most of the online forums, but it's good to have for people to participate. My biggest problem is with people that are not accepting to new ideas, or that need to confront everyone as if it's a "right or wrong". In that regard, woodworking is similar to religion and all of us can believe what we prefer.

I think there was 7 in total, so you are close to a full set. I am only keeping 2 retoothers and have 2 full sets of ratchets, along with a few carriers. Which sizes are you missing? Most likely the 15 and 16 ppi ones, those are the most difficult to find as they were always optional.

Here's my problem with the retoother. The unit pivots on 2 axis points which are tightened with a wing nut. I think yours has the plastic round handles, but mine has some Rube Goldberg type homemade wing nuts, kinda sorta...(all this stuff is pretty primitive ). In order to go between rip and xcut, let's say you need to adjust the angle, you often need to test it first and they are just not accurate enough to quickly flip around.

I once talked about this to Mike Wenzloff, and we both agreed this stuff is real crap...The one that really gets me is the 385 on/off switch...Look how it goes from the front (bottom right) and under the unit to the back (left bottom) and up the back to the toggle switch on the motor...



The same motor is used on the 387 with a contorted rod...they actually Rube Goldberg'd both switches...

I started another thread on on slotted vs. folded backs, would love to hear your opinion. Sounds like your gonna try both.

 

Ratchet bars

Alan,

The bars I have are 10-5 1/2, 13-7-4, 9-5, 8-4 1/2 and 11-6.

I've been playing around with the re-toother, stamping some 10 TPI teeth and it's pretty a no-brainer to get the thing going. The only experimentation was adjusting the pawl to feed one tooth at a time and playing around with how far to set the saw plate on the carrier, since I don't have a setting gage. One inch from the carrier to the top of the teeth seems to work.

I do think I need to pull the punch & die out, as the top of the teeth are pretty rounded and the bottom have a pretty good burr. At the least, I want to see how much running clearance exists in the die, because sloppy clearance would also result in the same effect.

I don't know who wrote the instructions for Foley, but they do a fine job of complicating the obvious!

 

Let's reformat those:

Code:

 8 - 4 1/2
 9 - 5
10 - 5 1/2
11 - 6
13 - 7 - 4

There is also:

12 - 6 1/2
14 - 7 1/2
16 - 8 1/2

So a full set is:

 9 - 5
10 - 5 1/2
11 - 6
12 - 6 1/2
13 - 7 - 4
14 - 7 1/2
15 - 8 - 4 1/2   <- requires this hen's tooth :)
16 - 8 1/2        <- and this hen's tooth as well

In your case you would still need the 15-8-4 1/2 if you wanted to get the 15, or make it of course. But because you have the 8-4 1/2, you are still missing the 15 which only comes on the 15-8-4 1/2.

However, the older ratchets didn't include the higher pitched teeth. IOW, your 8-4 1/2 is the older model to the 15-8-4 1/2. It didn't include the 15.

This is another reason the 15 is so hard to find. In fact, it is one of the ones I bought from Foley. Foley didn't have any 16-8 1/2 ratchets, but I have since found at least 2. I can't remember how many ratchets I have bought, as I have helped out a couple friends with ratchets.

I believe they didn't have the 15 and 16 until the 385/387/392 series. The turquoise tin era...lol But I have bought so many various Foley crap, I've given almost a complete set to a friend in the Bay Area Galoots. He might be missing one, but I think he has a full set also. I have 2 full sets. But the reality is that it's not much to gloat about...it's hard to put a full set together considering the 15 and 16 which are 2 that most people want for building joinery saws. For myself I use 14 with a slight rake.

The 15 and 16 are listed as optional in all the literature...but there is never mention of them until the 60s/70s.

Keep in mind that Foley is a pretty old company, there are also different styles of carriers and ratchets (DAMHIKT ). I have some ratchets that I have no idea what equipment they are for, could even be Acme, they made some machines also (same as made saw vices).

I have bunch of old sales ads, manuals, training crap, it's all marketing 101 offering. They sold on credit with minimal credit required...even free 6 months without payments for 4th of July, stuff like that...it's no wonder there's piles of this crap, I think if you could sign your name you could buy it on credit.

They also had training, and they sold all the training and equipment and offered all of it on credit all the time. it's fascinating...but not to digress...

The area they fail at most is when you need to change the rake and ratchets. Because the equipment is not accurate enough. Notice that the ratchets actually always end on the 1 / 2. I once figured this out, and let me see if I can get this correct.

When you have a ratchet, you split the teeth to divide it again, but you have one in the center and two on the outside when you start. This only has to do with the where the first tooth starts, if that even makes sense, cause each ratchet tooth that is split as you continue to count will use the extra from the previous tooth. This is why the division of the ratchet is always a 1/2 up from the split, to account for both ends. And you can never guarantee that you will start/stop at the same spot, because Foley equipment can only be accurate to half the space of the teeth. When you change ratchets it could effect the placement of the tooth for the position of the advance, and ratchet gear. Or shall we say they can move that far in the most extreme condition. If you think about taking your current ratchet, and split the ratchet teeth once again, by going in between is why you end on the half. Then you adjust the advance to move the amount of teeth that you need.

When you need to change rake and ppi a lot, it becomes apparent how tough it is to accurately calibrate these crap machines. As an example, I want to cut a 15 ppi with 4 degree rake, and a 16 ppi with 8 degree rake. Oh, and I need a pair of crosscut plates (previous are rip) that are 14 ppi with 15 degree rake, and one with 13 ppi and degree of rake.

Your better off leaving it set in the middle and file the correct angle .

Sometimes you'll get it spot on, and then you f#@$ up the last piece of a certain thickness of steel that you have. Never underestimate the power of Foley...he's Murphy's cousin...

If you have 2 you could set one up for rip and one for xcut.

Another guy here got one done recently, they just flatten the die. The one I use mostly had the tags on it with the wire around the cutter, so it had never been used. Those are still in pretty good shape. I have another, but they are used, and the replacements could be in the one that is buried in the garage somewhere...lol

Rube Goldberg's cousin. It was Rube that designed this crap.

Sorry for ramblin' this Foley crap gets me going...

 

Not a sawmaker yet!

Ray,

Thanks for your welcome, but I'm not yet a sawmaker! I got the equipment and now I got to pay a lot of dues in experimenting! But it sure is a lot of fun!

I'm here to listen and learn & if there is anything I know or can do to help someone else, I will (I do have a complete machine shop and quite a bit of fab equipment).

T.Z.