Need help with a couple of saws

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by carnick, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. carnick

    carnick New Member

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    First I would just like to introduce myself, my name is Nick and I am new to backsaws.net.

    I have a couple of saws that have stamps on them but I just need help with dating and if someone could provide me with some more info on them it would be very appreciated.

    The first one I have is stamped Rainbow & Sons Sheffield and has an emblem above it. To the right of that it says Warranted Cast Steel. I've looked everywhere for this manufacturer on the internet and in books and cannot find anything on them. Does anyone know anything about this manufacturer and a date maybe for this saw?

    The second one I have says Charles Peace Sheffield Cast Steel and a number 4 on it. I know there was a Charles Peace that co-owned Eagle Works. Is this the same person. I haven't been able to find a saw like this one that just has his name on it. Would this have been pre eagle works? I would love to have more info on this saw and maybe a date if possible.

    Thank you.
    -Nick
     

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  2. carnick

    carnick New Member

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    Here is the second one.
     

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  3. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    Hi Nick,

    A very quick reply as I am pushed for time, but your Rainbow saw is in HSMOB as a London maker, with no dates ascribed. BUT, your saw bears the USE candlestick and may therefore be a secondary line of R Groves and Sons. An interesting saw if it is a Groves.

    In HSMOB there is no Charles Peace in isolation as a maker, and as you say, is in partnership with William K. at the Eagle works. Neither are any of the listed trade marks "Ibbotson", "Peace and Co." and "R Ibbotson" the same as yours, and so it may be possible that he was an independent maker at some stage.

    There is also a Peace and Co (Charles and Samuel) 1833 to 1841, at 5 Smithfield (1833 to 1834) and thereafter at the Eagle works. This may be your Peace, but there is no trademark/name listed.

    Hope it helps a little.

    Fred
     
  4. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

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    1,084
    Hi Nick again,

    I have a little more time now and have looked at all the photos. Your Rainbow/Groves (and bearing in mind that dating is not a science) looks to me to be in the 1870+ category, going on the shape of the handle.

    I like the rounded nose (but I don't think that in this case it has much of an impact on date) and the large blank label screw.

    The Peace, I have only just noticed has 2 Warranted Superior label screws instead of the normal blank ones and which I think sets it a little apart from its contemporaries. It is a pity about the large label screw.

    I think that it is more or less contemporaneous with the Rainbow, again going on handle shape but this time with the added pointer of the W/S screw. I seem to remember Simon saying at one stage that he thought that he had not seen W/S screws much before 1860, although I may stand to be corrected on that. If that is true then it probably leaves out the earlier 1833 to1841 Peace incarnation.

    But both are saws that I would be proud to own.

    Fred
     
  5. carnick

    carnick New Member

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    Hi Fred, thank you for the quick response. This Charles Peace saw has my imagination running wild so excuse me if this sounds a bit funny. Do you think this could have been Charles Peace's personal saw and that is why it is stamped with his name? I wonder what the number 4 signifies. It is not the TPI because I checked that when I first bought the saw. Do you think that the number 4 stamped on the blade is the style of the saw or maybe it was the 4th saw Charles made personally? I don't know what to think but it definitely has my mind racing with possibilities...lol

    And yes oh how I wish it had the medallion.

    Thanks again
    -Nick
     
  6. Barleys

    Barleys Most Valued Member

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    I've twice this evening started replies (one very long, alas!) to this, but lost them both when I went back to look at the thumbnails - is anyone out there clever enough to find them for me - please!

    Simon
     
  7. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi Simon,

    Alas no, anything not posted to the forum would be just on your computer.

    You could open the thumbnails in another window if you wanted to be able to refer to it while composing a reply.

    Regards
    Ray
     
  8. Barleys

    Barleys Most Valued Member

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    546
    Thanks, Ray - I sort of knew that yours was the only sensible answer!

    I'll try again.

    Nick's two saws are real puzzlers - a great opener, Nick!

    The Rainbow one is a new mark to me, and I looked at all the trades directories available on line for clues. There are reasons to think that the name is one of the many that was dreamed up by Sheffield saw makers anxious to apparently widen their product range: the HSMOB example having a London pattern (ie second quality) handle sounds similar to others such as "John Cockerill" (S&J), "Fred Craven" (Turner, Naylor) etc etc.
    The closest (and a wild guess, probably still miles off) I could get was to note that for many years there was a Dove and Rainbow pub in central Sheffield, and in the 1830s one of the publicans was a William Kirkby (who he??); saw making and keeping a pub not infrequently went together (eg Jonathan Beardshaw), and could it be that this WK was a relation of William Kirkby Peace?
    The Peace families (note the plural) are the most difficult (and there's a lot of competition) of all Sheffield names to get clear, as they unhelpfully used the same forenames for several generations. But WK and Charles Peace had big US connections (they adopted the name Eagle Works as early as 1837), and it is not at all impossible that both "Rainbow and Sons" and "Charles Peace" were lines specially produced for the US markets. The two small medallions on the Peace saw are reminiscent in their multiplicity and lettering style of other US export saws - Nick - were these saws acquired in the US?
    The appearance of the chamber (ie candle) stick mark on the Rainbow is also puzzling; the name was not used by either Groves (saw makers), or Marshes and Shepherd (saws and many other tools), who both used the symbol. The word Rainbow was a TM of Saynor, Cooke and Ridal, makers of mainly pruning knives, but factors of saws as well - I've seen their saws, but they don't carry the word. It was also a TM of William Jessop, big-time steel makers who did not make (or, documented, factored) saws. The Rainbow saw could conceivably have been made by Groves for some Peace person, or the even the shadowy William Kirkby, but who knows? Letting my imagination rip, I think of a Peace or Kirkby going round the corner (literally) to the Groves works and picking up a blade that had just been struck with the chamber stick, and saying he was off to America in a day or two and wanted to have an example of a different-sounding Sheffield saw to sell - he'd got in his pocket a mark made already (the fictitious Rainbow and Sons - adding "and Sons" made it sound even grander and long established), so could it be struck on this blade, please? The Peace firms, fearing a rival, had refused him permission to use one of their blades, and every saw maker would have had marks to hand with the words Sheffield and Cast Steel Warranted, so they could easily have been added...
    I would put the Rainbow as maybe 1850-60, judging by the style of the handle and the lettering of the marks; the rounded toe is suggestive of an early date, but that could be a later alteration. The Peace one is a bit later, maybe 1870ish, also judging mainly by the handle and the lettering.
    I have an unverifiable nagging memory of seeing somewhere the number struck like the 4 on the Peace, but I can't say what it might signify (the point size is too easily changed after manufacture to mean much, and it was only put on the heel of non-backsaws after Disston started the habit in the 1870s).It's interesting that it was deeply struck with the blade in the black (ie annealed, and early in the manufacturing process), not bright struck like the words Cast Steel, which as often with other makers, were applied after grinding and glazing of the blade. It would be a first for me if Charles Peace had his own saw with his own mark - most of these saw makers were managers and businessmen, not users or hands-on craftsmen. Other firms gave one of their partners (or managers) a separately named product line which they could presumably market more easily as "their" product, even though the article was identical to others the firm made - cut-throat wasn't the word for Victorian competition!

    All in all, two of the most interesting saws we've seen for a long time (Nick - could I use, with acknowledgement, the pictures of the marks for my list of British saw makers? Too late for the edition supposed to be published in 2013, but I'm working on a supplement: thanks in anticipation, Simon).

    PS It was Samuel and Charles Peace who introduced the Eagle Works, not WK & C Peace.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2012
  9. carnick

    carnick New Member

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    4
    Hi Simon,
    Thank you for replying. You are correct I did purchase this saw in the U.S.

    You may definitely use the pictures for whatever you like. What is the name of your publication? Where can I purchase it? I would love a copy. I am definitely torn apart on these two saws. I usually buy old tools and resell them but I am not sure if I want to sell these after the feedback I am receiving on them. From what you and Fred have told me they seem like one of a kind. I have been collecting old saws for almost a year now and I thought I had a pretty big collection until I read somewhere that you have over 1500 saws...lol.

    I have a collection of saws that I keep and a collection that I resell but I have never had anything like these two. Hmm...what to do? It seems like they should be in a museum somewhere. Having only collecting saws for a year I kind of feel unworthy of these two.

    I have a website where I sell old tools but being that I am still new to this forum I don't want to post it on here because I don't know if that is frowned upon. I have a Browne saw for sale on there that I wish I had some more info on. I was told that it was a Disston secondary line but upon research the Disston was spelled Browns and not Browne. The name Browne is actually stamped on the blade underneath the handle, another interesting feature I haven't come across.

    Thanks again.
    -Nick
     
  10. Barleys

    Barleys Most Valued Member

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    546
    Nick - thanks for the agreement to publish. I am contracted with Astragal Press to have the book published early next year - working title British Saws and Saw Makers. I'd be pleased if you felt you wanted to have a copy (it's a pretty big book, and will unfortunately come in at a pretty big price, I think).

    As for the ultimate destination of these two fascinating saws, maybe you'd like to consider repatriation to the Ken Hawley Tool Collection (http://www.hawleytoolcollection.com), to which I have given my own collection, and to which we have been able to add from other donors in the USA. Our aim is to have a reference collection of handsaws, so that we can act as a source for enquiries - which means having one of everything...
    We're working on it!

    PS I had an unexpected 40 minutes in Sheffield reference library this afternoon and went through every directory from 1774-1900 - not a single Mr Rainbow to be found. I'm as certain as I can be that the name was a marketing fiction - by whom, I'd have more difficulty in saying, but it's not impossible that the guess of the Peace brothers is the front runner - at the moment.
    Best wishes Simon
     
  11. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    671
    Hi Nick,
    There was some discussion earlier about selling saws on the forum, and yes it's not what this forum is intended for, there are plenty of other places better suited for selling.

    That said, I don't see anything wrong with putting a link to your website in your signature.

    Regards
    Ray
     
  12. Araldite

    Araldite Guest

    I have a Rainbow & Sons backsaw with a London handle but mine has "Sheffield" under an arched "Rainbow & Sons". Mine also has a crown on the left of the name and "Warranted Cast Steel" on the right.

    Vince
     
  13. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hello all,

    These two saws are on Ebay at the moment and so I will say little in addition to that which has already been said.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221168737291?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648

    I don't have the other on my watch list but it is on Ebay somewhere.

    I did however do a little research to try, however tenuously, to link Groves to Rainbow and following from Simon's

    The closest (and a wild guess, probably still miles off) I could get was to note that for many years there was a Dove and Rainbow pub in central Sheffield, .

    The pub is at 25 Hartshead and who has this pub as a local hostelry and lives at 29 Hartshead but a Mr Frederick Groves, albeit a fishmonger.

    Now, imagine one Thursday afternoon as Mr Groves (sawmaker) is in Frederick's shop picking up his weekly wet fish order he happens to say:-

    "Na then Frederick I'm lookin te send some saws te t' Colonials but Ahm a bit stuck fer a name. Canst'ee think o sumthin."

    "Well (Uncle/Cousin) says Frederick Ah canna really but lets gu te't Dove an Rainbow for a jar, they de a rate gud ale thear."

    Whilst imbibing Mr Groves (sawmaker) says to Mrs Drury the publican (victualler according to the 1862 directory) "Lizzy, me duck, wud tha like a saw named afta thee"

    "Nay she says, but tha can name one afta pub"

    "Ah canna de that Lizzy, Temperence wud be after me like a shot but Ah like t' name Rainbow, bit spaarse, ow abaht puttin Sons after it te gie it some clout"

    Hence a Groves named Rainbow and Sons,

    Its not worth translating the above if you don't understand it because it is actually a mixture of coalfield Derbyshire (the next County to the South) with a hint of Teesdale, but it is near enough.

    If it was real old Sheffield the "The, Thee and Thou's would start with a "D", hence a less than kind colloquial name for Sheffield'ers to this day is, De Da's.

    And people do call each other "Me Duck", used as a term of friendlyness/endearment by either sex to either sex. It is a little disconcerting to return to Derbyshire to have some hairy ex miner who you have never met before in your life call you "Me Duck".

    Still, it has brightened up a dreary Sunday afternoon for me, at least.

    Fred
     
  14. pmcgee

    pmcgee Most Valued Member

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    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
  15. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

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    Thanks Fred for your amusing story. It brought a smile on this chilly Christmas Eve morning as I sat here and drank my coffe. The Ebay posting almost had the coffee all over the monitor...
    I thank all those who gave a little of their time and participated because they enjoyed giving and to Ray especially for hosting.

    Joe S.
     
  16. pmcgee

    pmcgee Most Valued Member

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    One more Charles Peace for the 'pile'.

    Pretty 'new' looking ... no split-nuts here ...

    And stamped with a '6' where the other had a '4'.

    Previously mentioned ...

    [​IMG]

    And then mine ...
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. pmcgee

    pmcgee Most Valued Member

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    I wondered if the handle was dodgy, but I believe not.


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