Hi Ray & all, I've always always wanted a Kenyon saw, & the opportunity presented itself a couple of weeks ago... It's 14" long Kenyon with the curly K & Cast.Steel. The chubby handle looks very attractive in my opinion, unfortunately a previous owner decided to "clean" the split nuts, but I can live with that. The vendor mentioned that it was his Grandfathers saw, & the vendor was into his 80's, so, perhaps the early 19th Century? Who knows if Granddad was the only owner either? I'm hoping with the Cast.Steel that it's pre 1830 at least, but if not I'm still happy with its chubby little cheeks. Regards Mari
Hey Mari Wonderful saw. How could you not not love something like that with those "chubby little cheeks." I would think it has to be pre1830. because of the cheeks. Interesting the previous owner "spiffied" up the the split nuts and didn't do a grave number on the handle and thank goodness. Certainly has been well loved with the number of sharpening but I am sure it won't be asked to do that again. Wish I was presented an early Kenyon. enjoy the saw Joe S.
Thanks for your comments Joe, you are so right about the handle- thank goodness it didn't get a sand & polyurethane! Regards Mari
Hi Mari, I would also think, like Joe, that your saw was surely made before 1830. In fact, I'd vote to put it around 1810. But I also think that it's a question as to whether or not the handle is original. The cheek seems a little smallish to me compared to the size of the grip and the top hook is missing (which certainly may have been filed off if broken earlier). But that's really not significant given the variety of handles we see here. What I think is significant is that all of the brass backed Kenyon saws I've ever seen have a very distinctive feature at the end of the top chamfer, which this handle lacks. Usually the top chamfer ends with a return curve topped by two small bumps aimed at the toe of the saw. For want of an accurate term I'll call it a "birds mouth", which is what it sort of looks like. I have attached several images showing the detail I mean. Of course, I haven't seen all the brass backed Kenyons in the world and could be way off with this thought. But it makes sense when I consider those I have seen. I'd like to hear what others may have seen of this feature. David
It's a beauty, Mari: congratulations on seizing the opportunity. I'd not be surprised if it was around 1800 at the latest –that large round boss (aka chubby cheeks) is decidedly on the early side, I think. The arrival of yet another early Kenyon is a sign that this company must have been incredibly productive in the pre 1830 period (and conversely, and to me inexplicably) unproductive (at least on the basis of survivals) after that period. What other company's saws do we see in such numbers of that period? Are my impressions the same as others' ? For instance, I know that Joseph Wilson sold over 2500 saws in the short period (1768-1775) when he was into saw making, but I've only got one, or more accurately half of one because it was double struck with a later maker's name, and have never seen another. It's unfortunate that there are no other production figures for that period. Simon
David's reply, which I didn't see when I was writing the above, is more thoughtful. The over-shiny screws are distinctly suspicious. I think that the Sheffield saw handle trade would have described the decorative features on the upper side of the handle as a bead (the small one) and a peak. Simon PS Edit: Another piece of careless looking: I'm sure David knows very well what peaks and beads are, and of course he was referring to the two much smaller decorative beads in the position he describes. Sorry. Simon
Hi David, Many thanks for your detailed reply, I love that little "birds mouth" feature that you've identified on those other Kenyon back saws chamfer stops, it's certainly a pointer in identifying a Kenyon... The cheeks on this saw are smaller than other Kenyon back saws that I've seen too, but I've never seen a 14" Kenyon back saw, only bigger heavier back saws & dovetails & hand saws. The top hook is lower & nearly like a Disston 1896-1917 backsaw vestigial "hook", the patina of age is consistent across the top of the handle, there are no striations or evidence of breakage or sanding as far as I can see. Simon, many thanks for your thoughtful replies also.. it's very exciting to me to think that this little saw could be even be pre 1800, that's just incredible! The saw looked like the previous owner had taken the split nut bolts out to "ahem" clean them, so I decided to take the handle off to see if there was evidence of a larger or replaced handle. If the saw nuts hadn't been touched I would not ever have ever attempted to remove the handle on such a venerable old saw. The plate has the heavy pitting & wear under the handle that you'd expect to see on such an old saw, the outline of the handle looks to match the tarnish & wear. The split nut saw fixings are quite unlike any that I've seen before- the tapered shank is quite thick & beefy compared to later model saw fixings with their noodle thickness weak split nuts, the flat nuts & head of the bolts / screws are quite thick by comparison too- I wonder if many other Kenyon bolts / fixings are similar? I know they could have been replaced, but now I've got them back in with the sanding marks correctly aligned compared to previously, they fit near perfectly- & if you've ever tried to replace a missing split nut fixing, they're near like a fingerprint, all different depths, diameters & angles to the holes due to being filed off to suit the handle & from differing castings, they seldom if ever fit as well as the originals. This discussion & knowledge from saw collectors & makers & saw Drs & Drs of saws is what I love dearly about this forum, it's such a great place to dissect & discuss saws of all kinds! Many thanks Mari
Hi Mari, Good for you to take it apart. It does appear from what you've discovered that the split nuts and the handle seem to be a match, fitting so well together. And the fact that the screws and handle fit the holes in the blade so well speak powerfully for them all originally being together. Shane Skelton has photos of the screws from an early Kenyon dovetail on his instagram site which I've copied and have attached. They look very much like yours. But we should remember that the sawmakers then all bought their screws from other suppliers, they didn't make them themselves. So your screws are certainly appropriate to the time, and probably from the same supplier. That's all that we can be reasonably confident of. I don't have a picture of a 14" brass back, but I do have one of a 14"steel back, which is attached here. The length of the top chamfer and the hook on it are consistent with what appears on the brass back Kenyons I've shown. In fact all the Kenyon tenon saw handles of this period, brass or steel back, that I've seen seem to have this shape (the earlier ones from 1760-80 being certainly different), as does the one Kenyon & Sykes that I have. Your handle is different from them. So I still have a nagging feeling that your handle isn't quite right as a Kenyon product, but that doesn't mean that I'm correct. It's just an opinion and certainly subject to being changed by further new information. Nonetheless, you certainly have a fine Kenyon saw and I hope you continue be delighted with it, as you ought. I sure would if it were mine. Cheers, David
Hi David, Thanks for your reply, it's great that you found a photo of some other Kenyon saw fixings for comparison, that's really really cool & I feel more comfortable about the fixings.... On the other photo of the 14" iron back Kenyon it looks to also be missing the "birds mouth" feature that were on your other posted photos, I'm curious if it's due to wear or just not on that saw also. I'm very happy with this little saw, it's nesting happily with a few other oldies in the pile that are in the living room not the shed.... Thanks again, Mari
Hi Mari, The point I was making about the little "birds mouth" is that it shows up on all of the brass backs and differentiates them from the iron back Kenyons. The image of the iron back was to show the size of the cheeks/boss on a 14" Kenyon, since you mentioned that you had never seen a 14" Kenyon. David
Hi David, Thanks for your replies, so the Brass Backs got a little more detail than the iron back, got it now... Thanks again Mari
I was looking through a few old threads on this forum & found a thread with the title of KENYON & SYKES 18" BACKSAW, looking through some of the photos, I noticed a some photos of a Brass Backed Kenyon Saw that Simon had kindly posted in contribution to the thread & I was very surprised to see a handle with a lower hook & a lack of the birds mouth feature that appears on so many other Brass Back Kenyons as David has pointed out. I don't know, maybe the handles got fancier later on? Maybe just a different handle maker? Who knows... Simon, I hope you don't mind me lifting your photos from the original thread- putting a link to that in my post is technically beyond me!
Hi Mari, I went to that listing and I think you got confused. Simon showed two different saws there. The first was a Kenyon & Sykes open handled backsaw of later than 1820 or so. He also showed a Kenyon & Co saw of 1760 or so, which picture you have posted above. In my earlier post I referenced the saws of 1760-80 as certainly being different from the 1800 time period we're discussing and not having the birds mouth. David Edit: My apologies, Mari, you did say the photo you showed was of a Kenyon, not a Kenyon and Sykes. You certainly were not confused, but I was. In any case, those earlier, 1760-80, saws had a very different style of handle, as I said, and as you have discovered as well from your researching previous posts. David
No worries at all David, it's very interesting comparing the differences in the handles. Regards Mari