Hello all, This is another waif and stray that took my fancy. The horns have been truncated and nibbled at; the blade is as bent as a dog's hind leg but the two redeeming features are:- the tiny Warranted Superior medallion (only 1/2 inch across as are the saw nuts) and the rather enigmatic names on the steel back. Now, I have little hope of finding out who made this saw but in many senses the pursuit is better than the reality of the knowledge. These are my thoughts. The "Fitzwilliam Sheffield" was obviously put on when the saw was manufactured. Fitzwilliam has many permutations in that it is a surname, the name of a village in Yorkshire, the name of a street in Sheffield and possibly a brand name as well. JT&S is the really interesting one.It was probably not put on in the primary manufacturing process or if it was, put on by a careless or illiterate and soon to be unemployed worker. (It is a little skewed and, of course upside-down). If it was put on later, was it a supplier (ironmonger?), a minor maker (brand) or a secondary line? How difficult is it to impress a mark like this into steel that is cold? It is significantly deeper than the Fitzwilliam impression. Does this indicate a much later stamp or just that someone gave the die a lot more "wellie". I am discounting here that it is an owner's stamp owing to the cost of manufacturing one for an individual, unless of course it was put on by a company later in the saw's life. As for JT & S itself. I am presuming that S stands for Son. As for JT, there are a number of Turners, Tyzacks and Taylors with the initial J along with a few lesser known surnames, but none associated with the name Fitzwilliam apart from Joesph Tyzack (I think in the 1861 directory -I lost track of the names of them ) who lived in Fitzwilliam Street. There was also a J Tyzack (Die Sinker) of 17 Fitzwilliam street in an earlier directory. I am coming down on the side of it being a secondary or generic line with the stamp of a supplier. Whatever it is, it is fascinating and I love the medallion. As always any ideas/comments welcome Fred.
Hi Fred, Tis' the season for rare finds. The only reference to Fitzwilliam I could find was in HSMOB Fitzwilliam & Co Sheffield 1875 and reference cited was a compass saw. Making some wild guesses, I think we should start looking for a merchant brand, or hardware store brand. These can be notoriously difficult to find. The "J T & S" is interesting, looks to have been stamped by the end user, and might be a company name, maybe a firm of cabinet makers or building firm, here we can cast the net a bit wider than Sheffield. I did a search on http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/wiki/Main_Page and found this intriguing image, probably not related to your saw, but worthy of more research.. Maybe there is some kind of connection? Regards Ray
Ray, Whilst researching my next saw (a Robertson soon to appear in these pages), I came across Fiztwilliam, Earl of Elsecar (a now rather down-at-heel place) under the heading of Iron Master/Iron manufacturer in Slaters Directory of Important English Towns 1847. Looking at other references to him, he seems to have owned or had influence over a large area of land in the triangle formed by Leeds, Sheffield and York and so it would not be unusual to have a saw (or indeed anything) named after him (or them as there were a line of Earl Fitzwilliams). What is interesting about this Earl is that he obviously and openly engaged in, and had his name associated with "Trade" when the norm amongst the hereditary aristocracy was to shun such a direct association. So, I may have a saw hand-forged by an Earl. Now that is a thought. Fred PS The Slaters of 1847 is a wonderful source as it does list a number of towns throughout Britiain so if you have a search subject such as "saw manufacturers" you get a much wider coverage. It even has Glasgow and the Isle of Man. Also from what I have gleaned from these pages the 1840's/50's was an interesting transition and expansion period in saw production. The Sheffield section has all the big names of saw manufacture and, of course, many others who are not so well known. It is also one of the easier directories to read.
Hello again Ray/all, Feel free to ignore this, it is merely a speculative ramble. Your Earl Fitzwilliam has got me thinking which is always a dangerous thing to do and I am not often right, but my thoughts are these. I can find no people called Fitzwilliam in the directories from 1822 to 1870 except for said Earls. There are indeed no Fitzwilliams in the Sheffield telephone directory today whereas there are 8 Tyzacks and many more ex-directory. If we narrow the area of land that he owned down to the triangle between Sheffield, Rotherham and Barnsley, he did seem to own a fair chunk of it and would have had massive influence over what went on there and particularly the use of his name. I don't know how old the saw is, but possibly around or not much later than, the 1850 mark. If it is earlier then so much the better. When did the warranted superior medallions come into use? Most, possibly all other saws around this time have initials in front of the maker (if an individual name as opposed to something like Drabble and Sanderson)) or "brothers", "sons" "co" , "Ltd" after it. I know your 1875 firm is a "Company" but that is possibly 20 years after my saw. The "FITZWILLIAM" on my back almost has the arrogance of the aristocracy as though nothing else is needed to brand it. There is only one Fitzwilliam, not a number who you need to differentiate between. What I am coming to in a round-about way is this. If said Earl or his company did not make this saw, then he probably sanctioned the use of his name as a trade mark by someone else. Which does not get us very far, but I think is interesting. Probably all a load of complete tosh, Fred
Fitzwilliam J T & S My Fitzwilliam saw also has the J.T&S but it is set straight in line with the Fitzwilliam Sheffield mark. What I found was that Fitzwilliam was a mark of Joseph Tyzack & Son. What I also found was " In Drake’s Directory for 1863 Joseph, a fendermaker, is listed as Joseph Tyzack & Son, 160 Fitzwilliam Street." You can find that at www.wkfinetools.com/hUK/TyzackJ/jTyzack-index.asp. I surmise that is where the Fitzwilliam comes from.
Hi Araldite, Thank-you for the reply. It does go to show that I shouldn't start thinking. Absolutely lovely saw in nice condition. Do I see that it also has the tiny 7/16ths warranted superior medallion? Whether the maker of the saw is THE Joseph Tyzack, I think depends upon how old the saw is. You are right about the Joseph Tyzack and the platerers tools. I have a record in Whites 1856 of a Joseph Tyzack making plasterers tools and who had a home address in Fitzwilliam Street. On the same page, however (p181) I have a Joshua Tyzack who is specifically listed as a maker of saws and scythes and who had a home address in Wood Street. I think this same Joshua Tyzack is referred to on P34 of the same directory with "Tyzack Wm. senior, junior and Joshua". This was the firm of W Tyzack and Sons whose works were at Rockingham Street and whose home was Abbeydale (hence Abbeydale works). (Although he is not listed as Joshua and Sons, he looks to me to be a Son himself.) I can find no record of Joseph being listed as a sawmaker before the Whites of 1879. (and this is in Bowden Street). There is no record in the 1862 directory of him making saws. According to the link that you gave he had the Legs of Man trade mark registered with the cutlers company in 1847. It is curious that he used JT&S on saws rather than his better known Legs of Man trade mark. This is, of course providing that we are talking about the same Joseph Tyzack and not a father or yet another (generation) son. So, depending upon the age of the saw are we talking about a pre 1847 saw when he did not have the trade mark; is it a later saw that he decided not to use his trade mark on; is it (remotely) a Joshua saw or yet another J Tyzack altogether? The Fitzwilliam connection is interesting but is it persuasive? When did the 7/16th warranted superior medallions come into and go out of fashion. This may help with the dates and therefore the right generation of Tyzacks. When did THE Joseph Tyzack start making saws as opposed to plasters' tools. If it wasn't until 1879, (or thereabouts) is this not getting a little late for the style of handle and the 7/16th saw nuts?. This information must be known somewhere. HELP!!!! Fred
Sorry about this, more Tyzack droning on, unless of course you are a Tyzack in which case you have a book and a website devoted to you. In Whites 1862 of Sheffield and Rotherham, there are two more references to Tyzack Jph., one at 35 New George Street, (little Sheffield) and one at 160 New George Street. Both are described as toolmakers. In the same Whites later on P181 Joseph, manufacturer of plasterers' tools has his home at 160 Fitzwilliam Street and his yard at 35 George Street. Where does this leave the Joseph Tyzack at 160 New George Street? Is it a printing error in the directory; did the same Joseph Tyzack have two premises on George Street or is the one at 160 a separtate person? Also an interesting snippit that I picked up from tilthammer.com is that the previously mentioned Earl rented the land to William Tyzack that his Abbeydale works was built on. Araldite, do you have a proven or persuasive source that FITZWILLIAM was a brand of Joseph Tyzack and that, if so it was THE Joseph Tyzack? I am lothe to release my grip on my Earl. Fred
Hi Fred, Araldite found Fitzwilliam in the reference he noted in the other thread on trademarks. Thanks Araldite, great detective work! I see lots of other interesting trademarks in there as well. The actual page is this one... The three legged "isle of man" symbol is on the next page. So, that explains the mystery of the "JTS". As far as a connection the Earl Fitzwilliam, I think the connection is that they named a street in Sheffield after him, which was where the Tyzack factory was at some stage.. The Earls' Fitzwilliam appear to go back into the 14th century at least, but made their vast fortune from the collieries (presumably on their land) and supplying coal for domestic and industrial customers. I find the Tyzacks endlessly confusing, just when I think I've got it, another one pops up and it's back to square one. Regards Ray
Thank-you Ray, Enough said. I could not access that page from the link nor when I put it in my address bar. Could I have done so, it would have prevented a lot of painful thought and a waste of your readers time. Fred
Hi Fred, The link is a direct link to a 10 Mb pdf file, if it doesn't automatically download when you click on it, try right-click on the link and choose "save link as" The pdf file will then be saved on your computer, and you can open it with acrobat reader. Regards Ray
Hello All, I did buy this saw from ebay but it looks as though I am not going to get it. I was sent a Abraham Ashton and Sons Ltd instead. I made such a dog's dinner of the first Fitzwiliam that I thought that I would make amends and put a "proper" Fitzwilliam and Co. saw on. But between me buying it and not receiving it, Simon put his exposition of the "and Co." mark on the Ericson thread. He also mentioned Bowden (the sister brand to Fitzwilliam) changing to Bowden and Co. I presume therefore that the same thing happened to Fitzwilliam and Co., to tart up the brand name. Having said that it is a different quality saw to the steel backed one originally put on. If this is the case then it puts doubt on the entry in HSMOB as Fitzwilliam as a maker in its own right. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=200566821463 http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages...439172,434439193&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0 I have put the ebay locations on as I cannot copy the images themselves and so they will probably be there for only three months. I am not breaching copyright as putting the images on this site is part of the deal with the owner of them for not moaning too much about the non-arrival of the saw. Anyone who can tell me how to copy these images from a word document onto this site will make me very happy, or how I can download them from ebay in a copyable form. Fred
Hi Fred, Just a quick reply, with ebay images, they are embedded inside scripts, and difficult to grab directly, but whatever the source of the image, be it ebay or word or anything else at all. The lowest common denominator is you can always do a screen capture. With the image visible on your screen. Press Alt+PrintScreen. That's it... all done.. Now open your favourite image editing program and create a new blank image, now press CTRL+V (paste) and you can then proceed to crop the unwanted bits around the edge, and save it as a new image. If it's a web site, and you just want to link to the image, right click on the image and select the "view image info" then pop-up box will have the link you need to access the image directly. Sorry if these instructions are a bit glib, but i'd be happy to do a video tutorial at some stage if you are having trouble following it. Regards Ray
Hi Ray and all, I hope that I have found another way to do it. Lets see if it works. You underestimate my technophobia Ray. I don't have an image editing programme, let alone a favourite one but thanks for taking the time at what I assume was very late hour of the night. Those screws and that handle, if they are original should be well into the first 1/4 of the 20th Century. I have never seen a downward sloping chamfer before. Curious. I still live in hope that the seller will find the saw and send it to me. Fred
Getting images from eBay -------------------------------- 1) Auctiva - just right click on the image and select "Save Image As" 2) The eBay Enlarged Image Window Right Click on the image and click on "Save Image" in this case - HOWEVER - that is rare. Usually you need to go by an indirect route - as follows: a] Right Click on image b] Click on "Select All" c] Right Click on image d] Click on "View Selection Source" e] A new Window appears: Press Ctrl-F to bring up Find on the bottom of the window f] Type in - jpg" - and hit Enter, you will see a string something like src="http://i.ebayimg.com/12/%21CEqe2CgBGk%7E$%28KGrHqV,%21i0E0GpQq,Z0BNSlbsPPl%21%7E%7E_12.JPG" or the initial text may be - Index src= g] Select (it is highlighted) the string from - http to JPG - leaving out the "", and press Ctrl-C to copy the string h] Go to any Web page and Click on the url address at the top of the screen, making sure the entire url is highlighted i] Press Ctrl-V to paste the string into that address bar, and, Press Enter j] The image will now occupy the screen, Right Click on the image and click on Save Image AND YOU ARE DONE Sounds complicated, but once you are used to it only takes a few seconds.
J T & S Fitzwilliam saw Am away from home and my database, so can't give you all the info about Joseph Tyzack and Co, whose TM was the Isle of Man 3-leg (Tyzack took a trip to the IOM and fancied the symbol as eye-catching). His works had one entrance on Fitzwilliam Street and one on Bowdon Street, hence the names of two of his (out of 5) quality marks. The Earl of F owned large tracts of land in the city of Sheffield. The firm was one of the major saw makers, with extensive manufacturing of other tools as well. More later. Simon