J Robertson Backsaw

Discussion in 'Forum: Saw Identification and Discussion' started by fred0325, Dec 31, 2010.

  1. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hello all,

    This saw does, I think pose more questions than there are answers.

    I cannot find J Robertson anywhere in the directories or HSMOB. This leads me to think that he may have been a supplier/ironmonger rather than a manufacturer. Searching for Robertson is not a pleasant experience as there are so many, especially when you know that your effort will probably get you nowhere.

    The nuts on it are more 15/32nds than they are 7/16th or 1/2 inch. The medallion is 1/2 inch. The back is thin and the saw is light, so I suspect that it was not a premium brand in its day. I would hazard a guess at 1840's to 1860's for a date based on handle style and nut size/no., but as always I will stand to be corrected on this.

    The flat is angled up slightly and drops well below the cheek, so this knocks to a great extent my idea that a flat gives you more usable blade by being level with the bottom of the cheek. When I get enough examples of flat handles I want to do a comparison of angles v. age and/or function. I have a feeling that generally the higher the angle is from the horiziontal, the later the saw is, but there is the added complication of the weight of the saw, its purpose and the forces applied through the handle to accommodate/accomplish these .

    One of the interesting things about this saw are the striations on the nuts and which continue through to the medallion (see photo no.3 ). I had always thought that these were as a result of later cleanings until (I think it was Simon) who referred to them going in the direction of the final sanding in the finishing process. These striations do not quite follow the line of the grain, but would be consistent with a front to back sanding direction.

    Again, any ideas/comments appreciated
    Fred
     

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  2. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    671
    Hi Fred,

    Happy New Year,

    I am not having much luck with J. Robertson,

    The only one I have found, is, a Canadian Saw Maker, James Robertson 1871-1896

    The Warranted Superior Medallion is the UK style, not the US pattern... so I'm inclined to think that this Canadian connection may be a red-herring...

    Regards
    Ray
     
  3. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

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    376
    Hey Fred et al
    Happy New Year to you all.
    I think this is an interesting saw. I also looked in Mr. Schaffer's 'Hand Saw Makers of North America" to verify the name since "Ontario Saws" have been of particular interest and I have never seen an example of a J Robertson saw from either Monteral or Toronto. Ray suggested that the medallion style didn't match the typical American eagle that probably would have been more common due to the proximity. I include this picture of a medallion from a stamped J Flint St. Catharines Ontario panel saw that also exhibits a shield flanked by a lion and unicorn that was specifically made for the Flint Saw Co. originally from Rochester New York who operated both in Ontario and New York. I wouldn't be too hasty to discount the possibility that this might be a Canadian saw based on the medallion. Now...it is a shape that wasn't produced here through the examples I have seen.
    I might again be inclined to believe more it was a secondary line from the UK. but who knows on the Toronto/ Montreal possibility. More research will be needed.
    Great Find though
    Joe S
     

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  4. kiwi

    kiwi Most Valued Member

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    355
    As Joe notes, the English coat of arms was used on some early Canadian saws. Joe notes J Flint of St Catharines (1855-1870), and I also have a Shurly & Dietrich "Warranted Extra" from about 1875.
    I haven't seen any Canadian handsaws from J Robertson & Co although they are reported to have made a quite a few saws (18 workers in the Montreal saw shop produced $36,274 worth of saws in 1871). Maybe they were all logging saws. But if there were handsaws I'd expect they'd be marked "J Robertson & Co", not just "J Robertson"
    So your saw is still a mystery (Life wouldn't be much fun if there were no mysteries)
     

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  5. Joe S

    Joe S Most Valued Member

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    376
    Hey all.
    Never mind it being a Canadian saw. I should have gone to my favourite source. In Roberts's "Some 19th Century English Woodworking Tools", on page 442/443 of the second printing under Registered Trade Marks by the William Marples and Sons Ltd. "J Robertson" is branded as a third quality product. That was printed in 1928. It doesn't help us with dating the saw but I have the feeling it is later than we first suspected.
    Hope this helps Fred.
    Joe S
     
  6. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

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    671
    Hi Joe, Fred, Kiwi,

    I looked up Ken Roberts, and sure enough J Robertson is listed as a trademark of William Marples, but I note that the trademark he refers to is listed in their 1928 centenary catalogue. But not listed as a trade mark in the 1904 trade catalogue.

    I wonder if, in the printing of the 1828-1928 centenary catalogue they listed all their trademarks that has been used over the 100 years, whereas the mark doesn't appear in the earlier 1904 trade catalogue. That might indicate it was a mark that had been discontinued sometime earlier.

    That theory, (that it was a earlier discontinued mark) would appear more likely going by the general appearance of Fred's saw which looks to my eye as being mid 19th rather than 20th century....

    Looks like a nice saw.

    Regards
    Ray
     
  7. ray

    ray Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    671
    Hi Fred,

    I've been wondering about this, when you do the research, also do a comparison of the handle angle with the length of the blade. I suspect there will be a correlation between "hang angle" and saw length. If the same (London Flat) handle pattern was used for differing lengths the angle of the flat will be more horizontal with longer saws.

    Regards
    Ray
     
  8. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Thanks everyone for the input.

    It is nice to know that I am keeping up my reputation of buying third rate saws. Having said that the quality looks after itself in that it is always collectable and the vernacular tends to disappear. I like the vernacular.

    I still think the saw is around mid 19th century or a little later. I have a G and T Gray which I will put on at some stage in the future with exactly the same size rivets and the Fitzwilliam has the same medallion. Gray goes from 1845 to 1911 (HSMOB) and Joseph Tyzack (Fitzwilliam) from 1842 to 1919 (Trademarks on Base metal). I don't think that we ever dated the Fitzwilliam saw but it does not "feel" much later than the 1870's.

    Re the Flat angles. I will do what I can with the few that I have but I will really have to get some more to make it worthwhile. Ebay here I come!

    Fred
     
  9. fred0325

    fred0325 Most Valued Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Hello all,

    My confusion continues. J Robertson IS in HSMOB, not surprisingly under "Marples and Sons - William". But they have this firm from 1884 to 1965, which is definitely not the case for the firm as a whole, and I doubt that the entry is a mistake as the dates for Marples must be so well known.

    Assuming that the authors knew what they were doing, the only interpretation that I can put on this is that this is the period that they were involved in saw production/retailing as opposed to their edge tool and other woodworking tools business.

    This puts the saw as being very late for its style and I am not inclined to believe that is is this late. But I have been known to be wrong..........

    Can anyone explain the HSMOB dates.

    Fred
     
  10. Barleys

    Barleys Most Valued Member

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    546
    A bit of a late contribution, but from a delighted member. Many thanks to Joe for pointing out this Wm Marples TM. I had not seen it previously, having always gone only to the 1904 catalogue, where as Ray says, he doesn't feature. It may well be that J Robertson [who he???] was used as a mark only on 3rd quality saws, not any other tools, as this was something that other firms did (see Ward & Payne, edge tool makers). Actually the name could mean anything, from a relation, an employee, or maybe even someone completely fictitious. There are examples of all these in the great galaxy of Sheffield tool makers who had their saws factored for them (like Marples, and Ward & Payne)
    So I am very pleased to be able to take Robertson out of the "unidentified" category and put him happily to bed in his right place.

    regards to all Simon